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David 
to wish impossible things
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: the edge of the deep green sea
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| Fatboy wrote: | ^ He MURDERED his son, what DONT you get about that.
Sympathy? Youve got to be joking, he lost that right when he took his innocent sons life.
Believe me David, I understand mental illness, 15 years with Severe depression. ( ok now 2years))
And please dont call me uneducated, as i have lived twice as long as you have, therefore experienced many more things. I was like you once, new it all, but matured one day and found out I new nothing. Age and life experiences will change the way you think, you are not an idiot, i gaurentee you that you will change. |
I have no doubt that I'll change, but that's not the point. My question (not posed to you necessarily, but feel free to answer it) is why is the philosophy of judgementalism so prevalent amongst conservatives? Is it essentially philosophical, a result of tabloid rhetoric, or what? Why do you distrust the language of sociology and behavioural studies so much in these matters?
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"Every time we witness an injustice and do not act, we train our character to be passive in its presence." – Julian Assange |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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Because we are sick of bullshit excuses getting people off lightly when they have done evil deeds.
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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David
to wish impossible things
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: the edge of the deep green sea
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| think positive wrote: | David, people may not choose to be sociopaths pedophiles etc etc, but they choose to give in to their weird cravings.
You cannot excuse every bad act on the planet because they were born that way, made that way, mistreated etc etc.
This man was an adult, he knew right from wrong, he must have known that throwing ANY child off a bridge to their death, let alone his own, is not just wrong, but a terrifying awful way to die. But he didn't care, he did it anyway.
He did it to get back at his wife, the ultimate revenge.
Imagine that poor little boy. He would have felt it coming, "what is dad doing to me, why is he lifting me up here, why am I going over the edge, and then the sheer utter terror.... I only hope he died instantly, and did not have the physical pain to go with it.
Was he just walking along, and just though, hey I'll chuck him over the bridge, and then jump myself, or was it planned. That's premeditated murder.
For want of a better word, that's just evil.
I do believe in God, and I hope there is a hell for this bastard to rot in.
I have not one iota of sympathy for anything this man may have been through, I'll save it all for his son, and his sons mother, and the rest of the family.
This man killed his own son, a child who was entitled to feel safe and protected in his company.
This man did this awful deed, he is accountable no matter what his excuse.
There are to many excuses out there, it's time we all took responsibility for our actions. |
OK, well, that's a fairly succinct summation of the viewpoint I was discussing; what do you think of my argument?
A clear point that we disagree on is obviously religious belief. I don't believe in God, hell or an absolute moralist framework. That doesn't make the child's death any less distressing or the man's actions any less disturbing, but it does challenge the concept of his being 'evil' and knowingly transgressing the natural laws of Right and Wrong.
Whether he chose to do what he did out of deliberate cruelty, thoughtless self-obsession or just complete insanity can only be speculated upon. What I'm interested in is what led him to that point of wanting to commit that cruel, thoughtless or insane act. I guess that's the biggest point we diverge on: you see acts like these as a willful decision to break the laws of righteousness; I see them as the culmination of a number of factors that led this seemingly unthinkable action to be the 'correct' choice in this man's mind.
Those factors, I argue, are without exception external—genetic, sociological, reactive, and so on—but you don't have to accept that to see my point. The fact is that this man was in a situation where he wanted to do something that most of us would never dream of, that for some reason wasn't overrided by the typical preventative impulses that stop 'normal' people from committing such acts.
Let me put this another way: if you had the desire to commit this awful act, and for some reason none of the usual factors (compassion, inhibition, fear of consequences, taboo) stopped you from doing it, would you do it? The answer, of course, is 'yes'; the question, then, is how people can get to that state and how we as a society can address that. Hellfire rhetoric isn't a solution.
_________________
"Every time we witness an injustice and do not act, we train our character to be passive in its presence." – Julian Assange |
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Fatboy
Joined: 03 Feb 2011
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| think positive wrote: | | Because we are sick of bullshit excuses getting people off lightly when they have done evil deeds. |
+1
Thanks for answering
People have lost the ability to accept responsibility for their actions.
Communal (left wing) thinking, you know, lets all take responsibility.
Get Real.
David, YOU are responsible for your own actions, not me, not society.
This country offers every opportunity for the mental problems this man had, there is plenty of help. My experiences have proving this to me. |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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David, I get what you are saying, but I still think people should be held accountable.
Maybe I'm touchy today, it's been a roughy with the news of the death of my daughters friend, but I take great offense to that last paragraph, if the you is pointed at me. Cos I can tell you now, I would never have the desire to throw my own child of a bridge. What stops me from even contemplating it is the absolute love I have for my children, and the unshakable belief that I would do anything and everything in my power to protect them what ever I possibly can. That's called being a parent. Loving and protecting your child.it should come naturally.
As for how people get on this state, I believe it's a society gone soft. Allowing to many excuses for the inexcusable. When we were in primary school, and a kid acted out, he was sent to the headmaster ( I ain't that old, the strap was already gone) and the kid then behaved. Now we just give them another pill.
Accountability.
All I can see is a tiny coffin and a weeping mother.
_________________
You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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The Prototype 
Paint my face with a good-for-nothin smile.
Joined: 23 Apr 2003
Location: Hobart, Tasmania
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I have nothing against him being held accountable, for me, I'd love to try and find out why it happened, sure we can call him a heartless bastard BUT there could have been a reason for it.
And if there was, it could prevent it happening again, I mean he is STILL to blame, but, something in his mind could have caused him to do. It's a tragic case and the only thing we know is what we're already assuming that he was heartless, etc.
Which probably wouldn't save the life of someone elses baby, just my view anyway.
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David
to wish impossible things
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: the edge of the deep green sea
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| Fatboy wrote: | | think positive wrote: | | Because we are sick of bullshit excuses getting people off lightly when they have done evil deeds. |
+1
Thanks for answering
People have lost the ability to accept responsibility for their actions.
Communal (left wing) thinking, you know, lets all take responsibility.
Get Real.
David, YOU are responsible for your own actions, not me, not society.
This country offers every opportunity for the mental problems this man had, there is plenty of help. My experiences have proving this to me. |
"Getting off lightly" is a different matter altogether, in my opinion; in fact, I want to see the concept of judgementalism divorced from the legal process altogether. Despite the impressions of some (Hi TP and Annewilo  ), I am in favour of strong sentencing.
As for responsibility, that's a more complicated matter. I'm very much in the minority here when I state that I don't agree with the concept, although it's a little more complicated than simply 'refusing to take personal responsibility' in the commonly understood sense.
I'd say that I don't support the philosophy of blaming others, but I think it's good to understand that who you are (and thus what you choose to do) is entirely shaped by external factors. Surely you accept that this is at least somewhat the case—I presume you acknowledge the existence of genes and the importance of upbringing in shaping personality—so the only point of disagreement is how much free will is left over.
_________________
"Every time we witness an injustice and do not act, we train our character to be passive in its presence." – Julian Assange |
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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Getting off lightly? The guy is dead.
What should we do, shoot the corpse?
_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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David
to wish impossible things
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: the edge of the deep green sea
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| think positive wrote: | David, I get what you are saying, but I still think people should be held accountable.
Maybe I'm touchy today, it's been a roughy with the news of the death of my daughters friend, but I take great offense to that last paragraph, if the you is pointed at me. Cos I can tell you now, I would never have the desire to throw my own child of a bridge. What stops me from even contemplating it is the absolute love I have for my children, and the unshakable belief that I would do anything and everything in my power to protect them what ever I possibly can. That's called being a parent. Loving and protecting your child.it should come naturally. |
Ok, sure. But why do some people lack that love or protective impulse to begin with? Why doesn't it come naturally to some people? That's the point I was making above.
| Quote: | | As for how people get on this state, I believe it's a society gone soft. Allowing to many excuses for the inexcusable. When we were in primary school, and a kid acted out, he was sent to the headmaster ( I ain't that old, the strap was already gone) and the kid then behaved. Now we just give them another pill. |
So you, uh... blame society? 
_________________
"Every time we witness an injustice and do not act, we train our character to be passive in its presence." – Julian Assange |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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Yes, for being too soft.
The first, those people should not be parents.
My dad beat the crap out of me, and my mum and one of my sisters, he still thinks it was OUR fault. We deserved it.
My dad should not have had kids...
So exactly what crimes are you in favor of Strong sentencing for, that's got me really curious David!
_________________
You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| stui magpie wrote: | Getting off lightly? The guy is dead.
What should we do, shoot the corpse? |
Hand me the gun- or a small dwarf!
_________________
You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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5150 
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
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| think positive wrote: | Yes, for being too soft.
The first, those people should not be parents.
My dad beat the crap out of me, and my mum and one of my sisters, he still thinks it was OUR fault. We deserved it.
My dad should not have had kids...
So exactly what crimes are you in favor of Strong sentencing for, that's got me really curious David! |
Returning an Italian art house video late and not rewound.  |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| think positive wrote: | | stui magpie wrote: | Getting off lightly? The guy is dead.
What should we do, shoot the corpse? |
Hand me the gun- or a small dwarf! |
LOL. As opposed to a tall dwarf?
Just taking the piss, I know what you mean.
Not many people did have the "Brady Bunch" upbringing that TV promised us
Don't let that influence your views too much, this bloke wasn't your dad, every single situation is different and needs to be viewed as that.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| Whatever you like. Oh I get it. |
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David
to wish impossible things
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: the edge of the deep green sea
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| 5150 wrote: | | think positive wrote: | Yes, for being too soft.
The first, those people should not be parents.
My dad beat the crap out of me, and my mum and one of my sisters, he still thinks it was OUR fault. We deserved it.
My dad should not have had kids...
So exactly what crimes are you in favor of Strong sentencing for, that's got me really curious David! |
Returning an Italian art house video late and not rewound. |
 very funny.
Seriously, I'm in favour of strong sentencing on violent crime, including murder, manslaughter, assault, aggravated rape, etc. We as citizens must have the right to bodily protection, first and foremost, and rigorously upheld laws that provide a strong deterrent and rehabilitative function are a crucial part of that.
Secondly, I want serious policing of organised crime. I want to live in a democracy, not a Darwinist dystopia.
Otherwise, there are a number of crimes (theft, etc) that need to be dealt with punitively, but I trust our legal system to provide appropriate sentencing for.
I'm not sure how I feel about jail sentences in general, but that has nothing to do with the fact that I'm a bleeding heart lefty (). The question for me is whether jail actually works or whether it just provides a training ground for criminals and serves little rehabilitative function. I think our current justice system recognises that and is moving in the right direction, whatever the tabloids say. Still, there's a need for jail of some sort as long as there's a need to remove dangerous people from society for a time. Unfortunately, I think that need will probably always exist.
_________________
"Every time we witness an injustice and do not act, we train our character to be passive in its presence." – Julian Assange |
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