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David 
to wish impossible things
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: the edge of the deep green sea
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What, you don't like Turnbull? How come?
I know he's batting for the wrong team (so to speak!), but he's a genuine social progressive who at least appears to think beyond the daily news cycle and talking points memos.
What's your beef with him?
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"Every time we witness an injustice and do not act, we train our character to be passive in its presence." – Julian Assange |
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| Tannin wrote: | | stui magpie wrote: | Problem is there was no assault. None of the stories suggest he even touched her.
Eye witnesses? Nope. Sorry. |
Wrong. "In law, assault is a crime which involves causing a victim to apprehend violence".
And you are STILL ignoring the TWO different eyewitnesses to the assault who have come forward, never mind the witness to the immediate post-assault trauma. I don't get. You are not normally this stupid. |
| Quote: | assault means the direct or indirect application of
force by a person to the body of, or to clothing or equipment worn by, another
person where the application of force is-
(a) without lawful excuse; and
(b) with intent to inflict or being reckless as to the infliction of
bodily injury, pain, discomfort, damage, insult or deprivation of
liberty- |
http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_act/ca195882/s31.html
_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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Tannin 
Can't remember
Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: Huon Valley Tasmania
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Stui, you still have not admitted that there are two other witnesses to the assault itself (in addition to the witness to the shock and trauma Abbott caused) and you remain deluded about what assault is. For your benefit, I'll repeat my original quote, which is the very first line of the Wikipedia entry:
| Quote: | In law, assault is a crime which involves causing a victim to apprehend violence. The term is often confused with battery, which involves physical contact. The specific meaning of assault varies between countries, but can refer to an act that causes another to apprehend immediate and personal violence, or in the more limited sense of a threat of violence caused by an immediate show of force.
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Or if you want an Australian legal view:
| Quote: | How is an assault defined in the law?
A useful starting off point in identifying how an assault is defined by the various criminal codes is Queenslands definition. The Criminal Code in s 245 defines assault as the following:
(1) A person who strikes, touches, or moves, or otherwise applies force of any kind to, the person of another, either directly or indirectly, without the other person's consent, or with the other person's consent if the consent is obtained by fraud, or who by any bodily act or gesture attempts or threatens to apply force of any kind to the person of another without the other person's consent, under such circumstances that the person making the attempt or threat has actually or apparently a present ability to effect the person's purpose, is said to assault that other person, and the act is called an assault.
Additionally, all State criminal codes have further definitions of actions that may constitute an assault, such as causing physical discomfort by the use of: heat, light, electrical force, and odorous gases.
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http://www.findlaw.com.au/articles/4274/assault-laws-in-australia-definitions-and-defences.aspx
Meanwhile, in the news today, we see Abbott digging a deeper hole for himself with another lie. He really, really needs to stop denying this, cause there are now three witnesses to expose the lie. A simple admission of some bad behaviour years ago would have cost him only a little, but these continued lies could cost him very dearly.
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�Let's eat Grandma.� Commas save lives! |
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David
to wish impossible things
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: the edge of the deep green sea
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In his favour, he did point out that Ramjan is part of the Labor machine, which doesn't exactly lend her recollections a great deal of credibility. Otherwise, we have one anonymous witness (could be anybody) and a witness to Ramjan's distress in the aftermath but not the actual incident.
Does it look like it did actually happen? Yes! Has Abbott successfully cast enough doubt so as to minimise the damage for the time being? Yes! Will it backfire on him terribly if more witnesses come forward? Yes! Is that a good thing for Australian politics? No! (Well, 'yes' in the context that we might be rid of Abbott, but 'no' in the more holistic sense.)
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"Every time we witness an injustice and do not act, we train our character to be passive in its presence." – Julian Assange |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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Ramjan said it happened, Abott said is doesn't. One against one.
Patch said Ramjan told him it happened. Didn't see it.
Mr Anon says he saw Abbot throw a punch at her but didn't see it land. 
All Bud had to do was say he has no recollection, it would not be out of character if he was angry to forcibly slap a wall to emphasis a point, but categorically deny ever throwing a punch.
Then you have enough doubt over 30 year old recollections and hearsay..
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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watt price tully 
Joined: 15 May 2007
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| David wrote: | What, you don't like Turnbull? How come?
I know he's batting for the wrong team (so to speak!), but he's a genuine social progressive who at least appears to think beyond the daily news cycle and talking points memos.
What's your beef with him? |
No beef, but I thought you led with a virtual hagiography - I was expecting Ghandi or a Social Worker 
_________________
“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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watt price tully
Joined: 15 May 2007
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| stui magpie wrote: | Ramjan said it happened, Abott said is doesn't. One against one.
Patch said Ramjan told him it happened. Didn't see it.
Mr Anon says he saw Abbot throw a punch at her but didn't see it land.
All Bud had to do was say he has no recollection, it would not be out of character if he was angry to forcibly slap a wall to emphasis a point, but categorically deny ever throwing a punch.
Then you have enough doubt over 30 year old recollections and hearsay.. |
It's all piss & wind at the end of the day, but I'm sure most people would believe it was "in character". The mad monk was ready to deck Nicola Roxon when he turned up late to the health debate when he was Health Minister & she was his shadow in opposition before the 2007 eelction 
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“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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Tannin
Can't remember
Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: Huon Valley Tasmania
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| David wrote: | | In his favour, he did point out that Ramjan is part of the Labor machine, which doesn't exactly lend her recollections a great deal of credibility. |
And that is a direct lie. She has never been a member of any political party in her life.
Three witnesses, only one of them a Labor Party member, and that one the third of the three who didn't see any punches thrown. Abbott is digging himself into deeper and deeper trouble. He should have had the sense to admit it, apologise, and move on. If he'd done that in the first place, it would have all been over now.
_________________
�Let's eat Grandma.� Commas save lives! |
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Tannin
Can't remember
Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: Huon Valley Tasmania
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| David wrote: | | Will it backfire on him terribly if more witnesses come forward? Yes! Is that a good thing for Australian politics? No! (Well, 'yes' in the context that we might be rid of Abbott, but 'no' in the more holistic sense.) |
You mean "yes" in a more holistic sense, David. The primary architect of the disgraceful current state of politics, mired in negativity, lies, and mindless anger, is T. Abbott. Sure, he has been aided and abetted by his cronies in the Liberal Party - awful characters like the odious Christopher Pyne and the scheming Mal Brough - and there have been a few on the opposite side rather too ready to reply in kind, but the overwhelming cause of the dramatic lowering in political standards has been T. Abbott.
Seeing the end of Abbott's baleful influence would be a wonderful outcome no matter which way you look at it.
But it won't come to that. The assault itself was a very long time ago. The lies of his failed cover-up will damage him, but I shouldn't think they would be nearly enough to finish him. (More is the pity.)
_________________
�Let's eat Grandma.� Commas save lives! |
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David
to wish impossible things
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: the edge of the deep green sea
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| Tannin wrote: | | David wrote: | | In his favour, he did point out that Ramjan is part of the Labor machine, which doesn't exactly lend her recollections a great deal of credibility. |
And that is a direct lie. She has never been a member of any political party in her life.
Three witnesses, only one of them a Labor Party member, and that one the third of the three who didn't see any punches thrown. Abbott is digging himself into deeper and deeper trouble. He should have had the sense to admit it, apologise, and move on. If he'd done that in the first place, it would have all been over now. |
My mistake I thought it was Ramjan who ran for Wentworth, not Patch. My conclusion above should be altered accordingly: he doesn't have a leg to stand on. 
_________________
"Every time we witness an injustice and do not act, we train our character to be passive in its presence." – Julian Assange |
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David
to wish impossible things
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: the edge of the deep green sea
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| watt price tully wrote: | | David wrote: | What, you don't like Turnbull? How come?
I know he's batting for the wrong team (so to speak!), but he's a genuine social progressive who at least appears to think beyond the daily news cycle and talking points memos.
What's your beef with him? |
No beef, but I thought you led with a virtual hagiography - I was expecting Ghandi or a Social Worker |
OK, fair enough. But it's hard to think of many politicians who I have more respect for as individuals. If I were to draw up a table, it might go something like this:
Current politicians admired by David (formerly from Canberra)
1. Scott Ludlam (Greens)
2. Richard di Natale (Greens)
3. Malcolm Turnbull (Lib)
4. Andrew Wilkie (Ind)
5. Adam Bandt (Greens)
6. Stephen Jones (ALP)
7. Tony Windsor (Ind)
8. Rob Oakeshott (Ind)
9. Everyone else from the Greens except for Sarah Hanson-Young
10. Mal Washer (Lib)
There might be a couple of ALP backbenchers I've missed out on*, but everyone else can go to hell! 
*Oh, and it's hard to dislike Penny Wong. But speaking of politicians telling lies, I haven't forgotten her pathetic response to the same-sex marriage issue a few years before it became 'OK' to publicly support it. Sure, party protocol and all, but she let the team down badly on that occasion. Anyway, being an ALP frontbencher I have no doubt she's a terrible person.
_________________
"Every time we witness an injustice and do not act, we train our character to be passive in its presence." – Julian Assange
Last edited by David on Fri Sep 14, 2012 3:24 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| He will be interested I am sure. |
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David
to wish impossible things
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: the edge of the deep green sea
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| Tannin wrote: | | David wrote: | | Will it backfire on him terribly if more witnesses come forward? Yes! Is that a good thing for Australian politics? No! (Well, 'yes' in the context that we might be rid of Abbott, but 'no' in the more holistic sense.) |
You mean "yes" in a more holistic sense, David. The primary architect of the disgraceful current state of politics, mired in negativity, lies, and mindless anger, is T. Abbott. Sure, he has been aided and abetted by his cronies in the Liberal Party - awful characters like the odious Christopher Pyne and the scheming Mal Brough - and there have been a few on the opposite side rather too ready to reply in kind, but the overwhelming cause of the dramatic lowering in political standards has been T. Abbott.
Seeing the end of Abbott's baleful influence would be a wonderful outcome no matter which way you look at it. |
Yes, but wouldn't that just entrench his behaviour as a valid and useful political tactic? I hardly think it would lead to an epiphany on either side.
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"Every time we witness an injustice and do not act, we train our character to be passive in its presence." – Julian Assange |
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Tannin
Can't remember
Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: Huon Valley Tasmania
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^ I always thought an epiphany was something you have to help with difficult childbirth.
_________________
�Let's eat Grandma.� Commas save lives! |
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David
to wish impossible things
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: the edge of the deep green sea
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Just chanced upon this while looking at Abbott's wikipedia page. Seems the incident would have been neither out of character for him nor the context of the time:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_Abbott
| Quote: | | During his university days, Abbott gained media attention for his political stance opposing the then dominant left-wing student leadership. On one occasion he was even beaten up at a university conference. A student newspaper editor with political views opposed to those of Abbott took him to court for indecent assault after he touched her during a student debate. The charges against Abbott were dismissed by the court. According to the Sun-Herald newspaper, it was "an ugly and often violent time", and Abbott's tactics in student politics were like "an aggressive terrier". |
And I thought modern student politics was bad. 
_________________
"Every time we witness an injustice and do not act, we train our character to be passive in its presence." – Julian Assange |
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