Free will, determinism and the criminal justice system

[Nick - Pie Man]

It used to be interesting. It doesn't matter any more since I feel like I have free will, and that's good enough for me.

(Mind you I dont like to think about what's happening when I get drunk. Mind bending stuff)

[think positive]

OMFG bring on pre season!!

where are the saints when you need em??

[Pies4shaw]

[think positive]

[watt price tully]

[David]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ae-YxX71pyE

[stui magpie]

[David]

Thanks Stui.

If we were capable of truly spontaneous decisions, perhaps that'd be evidence of something (probably indeterminism, true randomness), but I don't think we're capable of genuine spontaneity. If I, say, impulsively do a handstand while serving a customer, even if I've barely thought about it for more than a split-second, I've really 'thought' enough for my brain to send signals to my arms and body to commence the act. This kind of spontaneity is just a quicker action than usual, but the same process as usual has occurred.

Anyway, even if we were capable of real spontaneity (and perhaps there are certain conditions like tourettes where that's the case), that hardly helps an argument for free will!

I guess the fact that we can do something 'out of character' means that, as you say, we're not bound merely to routine or convention. But I don't think that proves free will or disproves determinism; after all, if we were bound by these things, an intelligent person would be able to quite easily predict what most people would do with their lives. Determinism doesn't assert that; it simply argues that, predictable to a normal person or otherwise, everything that happens is inevitable.

Imagine for a second that you could record your brain activity during the time you decided to go out on a Friday night on a whim. Slow that process down so you can see every little step in the process between sitting on the couch and getting up, and you'd see something like this:

1) You're sitting on the couch, not sure about whether or not you'll leave the house tonight.
2) Your brain assesses various reasons why going out is a good idea (good memories, hope of having fun, not wanting to stay home, etc.). This gives you motive.
3) Your brain assesses all the data relevant to the situation (will I have a good time? Do I have a way of getting home? Do I feel tired right now?) and calculates best answer. You may not even be consciously aware of this process, but within a few microseconds you've made a decision.
4) Decision is made, so your brain sends signals down to the relevant nerves and muscles to prompt movement, and you get up from the couch. Action.

If you believe in free will, I guess you've got to point to a certain part of that process in which a free decision is being made. Most people would say step 3). The trouble is that in step 3 your brain is simply calculating an answer based on all the data available to it. It's like a computer which has been programmed with the objective: what is the best thing for Stui? You could hypothetically construct a computer and feed it all the variables to perform the same process and come up with the same answer, but you wouldn't say the computer has free will, right?

[Nick - Pie Man]

You could extend that logic and argue that if we know all the exact physical data of every particle in the universe, it would by possible to build a computer program that can look into the past and future with 100% accuracy. No free will there.

Unfortuantely reality doesnt work that way.

I wonder what would happen if I did build such a computer. Would it simulate itself simulating itself?

[think positive]

[HAL]

Hurrah! Define free.

[Nick - Pie Man]

[watt price tully]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=vIzQyskCEPs

[Nick - Pie Man]

You are right David, this topic is awesome. Pity you can't take any credit for it, as it is wholly determined by forces outside your control.

[Tannin]