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If the allegations are true, was Bowie a rapist? |
Yes, clearly. They were underage, end of story. |
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If he knew they were underage, yes, but otherwise no. |
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No. This wasn't rape. |
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Total Votes : 8 |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005 Location: In flagrante delicto
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To be fair though, that gap isn't as big as you think.
Women reach mental maturity in their early 20's, most men get to full mental maturity at around age 170. _________________ Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005 Location: somewhere
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They actually get there? _________________ You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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Wokko
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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We've got further to travel |
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ronrat
Joined: 22 May 2006 Location: Thailand
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The real elephant in the room is the effing Westboro baptist church. These wackers get off on disrupting soldiers funerals because shock horror there are gays in the military. There is nothing to be gained in going after a dead man for a victimless crime Crikey should know better than to give these thieves any oxygen. _________________ Annoying opposition supporters since 1967. |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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Try watching TV. |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005 Location: In flagrante delicto
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Who the hell reads Crikey? _________________ Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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David
to wish impossible things
Joined: 27 Jul 2003 Location: the edge of the deep green sea
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ronrat wrote: | The real elephant in the room is the effing Westboro baptist church. These wackers get off on disrupting soldiers funerals because shock horror there are gays in the military. There is nothing to be gained in going after a dead man for a victimless crime Crikey should know better than to give these thieves any oxygen. |
Razer's point (right or wrong) is that some of the media/blogosphere critics going after Bowie are adopting 'Westboro'-style tactics.
Westboro isn't and never has been an elephant in any room. Try a tiny flea in the Sistine Chapel. _________________ "Every time we witness an injustice and do not act, we train our character to be passive in its presence." – Julian Assange |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005 Location: somewhere
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Touched by an angel _________________ You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005 Location: In flagrante delicto
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^
Pretty sure that excuse has worn out for the Priests. _________________ Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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David
to wish impossible things
Joined: 27 Jul 2003 Location: the edge of the deep green sea
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Just to bump this old thread, I’ve been reading a really interesting new book by a US gender studies professor called Sex and Harm in the Age of Consent, which dwells on these issues. The author, Joseph Fischel, makes a really interesting argument: that we’ve been getting it wrong all along by using consent as our primary means of judging sexual ethics. His argument is that we should look at sex through the lens of autonomy, and that this should be informed by such things as exploitation and gender dynamics.
Among other things, his argument is a response to the fact that, as Wokko’s homie Milo Yiannopoulos argued to his own personal downfall some time back, gay teenagers often do seek out relationships with older men and can see these experiences as formative and beneficial – so the question becomes, how can we process this on an ethical level? It’s pretty controversial stuff, to say the least, but his argument is extraordinarily cautious and well-reasoned. You can see him talk about some related ideas here:
https://youtu.be/wvhYNJ6guhw _________________ "Every time we witness an injustice and do not act, we train our character to be passive in its presence." – Julian Assange |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007 Location: Between London and Melbourne
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David wrote: | Just to bump this old thread, I’ve been reading a really interesting new book by a US gender studies professor called Sex and Harm in the Age of Consent, which dwells on these issues. The author, Joseph Fischel, makes a really interesting argument: that we’ve been getting it wrong all along by using consent as our primary means of judging sexual ethics. His argument is that we should look at sex through the lens of autonomy, and that this should be informed by such things as exploitation and gender dynamics.
Among other things, his argument is a response to the fact that, as Wokko’s homie Milo Yiannopoulos argued to his own personal downfall some time back, gay teenagers often do seek out relationships with older men and can see these experiences as formative and beneficial – so the question becomes, how can we process this on an ethical level? It’s pretty controversial stuff, to say the least, but his argument is extraordinarily cautious and well-reasoned. You can see him talk about some related ideas here:
https://youtu.be/wvhYNJ6guhw |
Can you give us a summary of the argument ? After ten minutes of watching his jargon-soaked, internally referential and ideology-laden presentation (so far so gender-studies) , I looked at the 60 minutes still to go with distaste, and declared TLDW. _________________ Two more flags before I die! |
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David
to wish impossible things
Joined: 27 Jul 2003 Location: the edge of the deep green sea
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^ Basically, he looks at the weird corners of aberrant sexuality – stuff like necrophilia, cannibalism, bestiality and the like as a way of exploring the usefulness of consent as an ethical model. He races through a lot of this stuff, but I thought one of the more illuminating parts of his talk was when he talked about animals: if the idea of animal consent is absurd, how else might we look at the ethics of bestiality? He provides four models, one of which is Peter Singer’s focus on harm, and others of which are rights (perhaps in the Kantian sense), pleasure and maximum capability. I think it’d be interesting to apply those models to humans, too (not to reject consent, but to complicate it).
His point in bringing up cannibalism is that consent is not enough to guarantee that a person is not going to be harmed; he also (cautiously) extends his critique to certain BDSM practices, a community in which consent is generally used as the first (and only) means of judging the ethical soundness of an act. He later goes onto a lengthy comparison with American football, a sport that, despite all its protective gear, causes a huge amount of permanent head injuries (I’m not sure whether this is a bigger problem there than it is here in the AFL). His question there is whether the consent of participating players is enough to make American football ethically legitimate. What he’s doing here, basically, is trying to look at harm (and benefit) in sex as being about something other than freedom of choice – I think that’s a fascinating and thought-provoking exploration. He talks a little about age of consent laws at 17:30. _________________ "Every time we witness an injustice and do not act, we train our character to be passive in its presence." – Julian Assange |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007 Location: Between London and Melbourne
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^ ok, thanks. That does help explain it in a way that I can understand (ie that I can be bothered understanding). It seems a fair intellectual point, but I think necrophilia and bestilaity are really different classes of act compared to sex between living human beings, and therefore the ethical framework is necessarily different. In other words, I don’t think the bar on necrophilia tells us anything meaningful about what makes ordinary sexual acts ethical or otherwise, so I am not sure the inference is valid. _________________ Two more flags before I die! |
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thesoretoothsayer
Joined: 26 Apr 2017
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005 Location: In flagrante delicto
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Mugwump wrote: | ^ ok, thanks. That does help explain it in a way that I can understand (ie that I can be bothered understanding). It seems a fair intellectual point, but I think necrophilia and bestilaity are really different classes of act compared to sex between living human beings, and therefore the ethical framework is necessarily different. In other words, I don’t think the bar on necrophilia tells us anything meaningful about what makes ordinary sexual acts ethical or otherwise, so I am not sure the inference is valid. |
necrophilia is weird, it would be like having sex with my ex wife so I really don't understand the attraction. _________________ Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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