Things that make you go.......WTF?

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David
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Post by David »

stui magpie wrote:cows, sheep, pigs, chickens are bred and raised specifically to provide food and clothing (wool and leather). In that way they're no different to a paddock full of wheat. They're grown for a purpose.

Yes, they should be treated well while they're alive and not cruelly, but if we didn't eat them they wouldn't exist. They would have died out.
I don't think that argument works very well, because you could say the same about kids who are bred for slavery or people who are born and raised for cannibal rituals. Obviously the "purpose" of their existence doesn't make their deaths more humane. And cows and sheep aren't even aware of their "purpose".

I agree that they're not very smart compared to us, but I think we can drastically underestimate animals' inner lives. Mammals, at least, have memory, dreams, imagination, ability to feel pain, potential for fear, anger, happiness and perhaps even rudimentary forms of love and hate. We don't see any of this because we can't talk to them, but I think neuroscientists agree that it's all there. How smart would you think people were if you never talked to them but just watched them sit in front of TVs, walk down the street or stagger down the train aisles singing drunkenly? You'd probably think human beings were complete morons (now, whether or not we are is a different matter... ;)).

And just to be controversial, I still don't see how shooting a cow in the head is kinder and less cruel than giving a dog a hand-job. Which would you prefer?
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Morrigu
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Post by Morrigu »

stui magpie wrote:nTo elaborate on how dumb they are, several years ago I was doing an eco cruise on the Daintree river with a bloke for a guide who washed when it rained. I spotted two angus cattle drinking side by side from the river and asked the guide if they weren't aware of the danger from Crocs.

His response was that they were the dumbest animals on earth, he'd seen a saltie take a cow from the river bank while the other one beside it looked on, then continued drinking.
Bit like the dopey humans then who see " do not swim crocs" signs most with pictures ( especially for the really clever Germans and Septics!) and then proceed to jump in and swim - then get eaten - like that dumb? :wink: :roll:

And of course we humans are so very clever - we know everything about everything ( and if we don't we will make it up based on our perception - like what animals feel think etc) and we learn from our mistakes - oh wait ..... except for that intolerance of others that are different thing and that war thing!
Last edited by Morrigu on Sat Apr 12, 2014 7:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by 1061 »

David wrote:
stui magpie wrote:cows, sheep, pigs, chickens are bred and raised specifically to provide food and clothing (wool and leather). In that way they're no different to a paddock full of wheat. They're grown for a purpose.

Yes, they should be treated well while they're alive and not cruelly, but if we didn't eat them they wouldn't exist. They would have died out.
I don't think that argument works very well, because you could say the same about kids who are bred for slavery or people who are born and raised for cannibal rituals. Obviously the "purpose" of their existence doesn't make their deaths more humane. And cows and sheep aren't even aware of their "purpose".

I agree that they're not very smart compared to us, but I think we can drastically underestimate animals' inner lives. Mammals, at least, have memory, dreams, imagination, ability to feel pain, potential for fear, anger, happiness and perhaps even rudimentary forms of love and hate. We don't see any of this because we can't talk to them, but I think neuroscientists agree that it's all there. How smart would you think people were if you never talked to them but just watched them sit in front of TVs, walk down the street or stagger down the train aisles singing drunkenly? You'd probably think human beings were complete morons (now, whether or not we are is a different matter... ;)).

And just to be controversial, I still don't see how shooting a cow in the head is kinder and less cruel than giving a dog a hand-job. Which would you prefer?

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Post by stui magpie »

David wrote:
stui magpie wrote:cows, sheep, pigs, chickens are bred and raised specifically to provide food and clothing (wool and leather). In that way they're no different to a paddock full of wheat. They're grown for a purpose.

Yes, they should be treated well while they're alive and not cruelly, but if we didn't eat them they wouldn't exist. They would have died out.
I don't think that argument works very well, because you could say the same about kids who are bred for slavery or people who are born and raised for cannibal rituals.
And this exists where?
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down.
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Post by Tannin »

stui magpie wrote:but if we didn't eat them they wouldn't exist. They would have died out.
^ This is a statement betraying truly monumental ignorance about the biological world.
�Let's eat Grandma.� Commas save lives!
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Post by David »

"Every time we witness an injustice and do not act, we train our character to be passive in its presence." – Julian Assange
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Post by Tannin »

David wrote:but surely the point is not to find evidence of this as an actual phenomenon but to recognise it as an illustration of a point: the mere fact of being bred for some nefarious purpose doesn't somehow make your life less valuable.
Well, OK, but only within broad limits. For example, what about Carlton supporters?
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think positive
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Post by think positive »

Sick just sick.

Sex with animals in any shape or form is just plain wrong.
Ugh
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Post by Wokko »

think positive wrote:Sick just sick.

Sex with animals in any shape or form is just plain wrong.
Ugh
But it's ok to kill them?

I get the point of what he's trying to say, we make certain things completely illegal, wrong and horrendous concerning treatment of animals, then we forcibly breed them and keep them in horrendous conditions before loading them in a truck and taking them off to be massacred.

Imagine this, we're visited by aliens who consider any non spacefaring species to be akin to how we see animals. They also find us very tasty. Is it ok for them to eat us? We're much less intelligent (can't even leave our solar system), there are too many of us and damn, we taste good. You can't ethically say that those aliens are wrong but it's ok for us to eat pigs.

(I eat meat btw, but the philosopher in me knows it's wrong, I just can't seem to stop).
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Post by David »

"Every time we witness an injustice and do not act, we train our character to be passive in its presence." – Julian Assange
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Post by Tannin »

Wokko, are we talking good-looking female aliens here?
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Post by David »

^ Sick!

;)
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Post by swoop42 »

Tannin wrote:Wokko, are we talking good-looking female aliens here?
Um no.
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think positive
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Post by think positive »

Wokko wrote:
think positive wrote:Sick just sick.

Sex with animals in any shape or form is just plain wrong.
Ugh
But it's ok to kill them?

I get the point of what he's trying to say, we make certain things completely illegal, wrong and horrendous concerning treatment of animals, then we forcibly breed them and keep them in horrendous conditions before loading them in a truck and taking them off to be massacred.

Imagine this, we're visited by aliens who consider any non spacefaring species to be akin to how we see animals. They also find us very tasty. Is it ok for them to eat us? We're much less intelligent (can't even leave our solar system), there are too many of us and damn, we taste good. You can't ethically say that those aliens are wrong but it's ok for us to eat pigs.

(I eat meat btw, but the philosopher in me knows it's wrong, I just can't seem to stop).
Me too.

It's not okay to keep them in horrendous conditions, it's not ok to kill them cruelly. It's not ok to chop off lambs tails with no medication, it's not okay to keep sows installs, and chicken in tiny cages.

But unfortunately I can't wave a magic wand and fix it all.

Justifying farming animals can never equate with a brothel that ties up animals so man can get a thrill, that's just plain sick. Anyone who can't see that is just warped. Have a little humanity, a little compassion, a little FEELING
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Post by 1061 »

think positive wrote:
Wokko wrote:
think positive wrote:Sick just sick.

Sex with animals in any shape or form is just plain wrong.
Ugh
But it's ok to kill them?

I get the point of what he's trying to say, we make certain things completely illegal, wrong and horrendous concerning treatment of animals, then we forcibly breed them and keep them in horrendous conditions before loading them in a truck and taking them off to be massacred.

Imagine this, we're visited by aliens who consider any non spacefaring species to be akin to how we see animals. They also find us very tasty. Is it ok for them to eat us? We're much less intelligent (can't even leave our solar system), there are too many of us and damn, we taste good. You can't ethically say that those aliens are wrong but it's ok for us to eat pigs.

(I eat meat btw, but the philosopher in me knows it's wrong, I just can't seem to stop).
Me too.

It's not okay to keep them in horrendous conditions, it's not ok to kill them cruelly. It's not ok to chop off lambs tails with no medication, it's not okay to keep sows installs, and chicken in tiny cages.

But unfortunately I can't wave a magic wand and fix it all.

Justifying farming animals can never equate with a brothel that ties up animals so man can get a thrill, that's just plain sick. Anyone who can't see that is just warped. Have a little humanity, a little compassion, a little FEELING
This is why I said "sorry" and bowed out.

Joe Walsh had it right, you can't argue with a sick mind!
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