Iraq in ruins

[David]

[Culprit]

The West tried to impose democracy on a country that doesn't know what democracy is. The result is death on a large scale. Afghanistan will finish the same way.

[Wokko]

This is what it looks like when you win a war but lose the peace. A peace they lost the moment they disbanded the Iraqi Army immediately following the invasion. Shows that the USA is great at war, but not so great at rebuilding and rearming their puppet governments. After WW2 they spent decades rebuilding and rearming or protecting their defeated enemies and now Germany and Japan are peaceful powerhouses.

It is also what they're reaping from supporting the 'rebels' in Syria. The only thing that can make this worse is if Iran helps the Iraqi Shiites or the Kurds are pulled into all out war (or both). Truly a clustercluck of epic proportions.

[stui magpie]

I'm sure there's plenty of people there who would love democracy and deserve to be able to live in one, unfortunately there's still enough fundamentalist nutjobs with guns who want to keep the area in the dark ages so they can control it.

WTF do you do? If the Iraq government asks for help do we send troops in again or do we abandon those people?

IMO, if you say you vote to abandon them to their lot, you also then agree we should not take them as refugees when they end up in Indonesia trying to board a boat. I'd rather try to help them stay where they are.

[David]

Stui, there will be refugees whether America marches in to the 'rescue' or not. There already are. So that's a red herring. Obviously any means of helping restore stability should be considered, but I have no idea what options the US, EU, Iran and Russia are willing to entertain or how far they'd go after the disaster of the original occupation. The fact is that the 'Coalition of the Willing' have created this mess by voluntarily transforming a stable (albeit tyrannical) country into an unstable one and not knowing how to transform it back again. Terrible irresponsibility.

[Culprit]

Stui, there will be refugees whether America marches in to the 'rescue' or not. There already are. So that's a red herring. Obviously any means of helping restore stability should be considered, but I have no idea what options the US, EU, Iran and Russia are willing to entertain or how far they'd go after the disaster of the original occupation. The fact is that the 'Coalition of the Willing' have created this mess by voluntarily transforming a stable (albeit tyrannical) country into an unstable one and not knowing how to transform it back again. Terrible irresponsibility.

True David but it was good for American Defence Companies and their shareholders.

[3.14159]

This is what it looks like when you win a war but lose the peace.

when exactly was the war won?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XzrJwzYBUkU

[Wokko]

This is what it looks like when you win a war but lose the peace.

when exactly was the war won?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XzrJwzYBUkU

On April 9, Baghdad fell, ending President Hussein's 24‑year rule. US forces seized the deserted Ba'ath Party ministries and stage-managed[154] the tearing down of a huge iron statue of Hussein, photos and video of which became symbolic of the event, although later controversial.

Post this date it became an occupation and insurgency, and that's where the USA failed. The War itself was a spectacular military success. The US has a habit of spectacular military success followed by abject failure.

[Wokko]

Here's something not being reported in the Western 'press'.

http://rt.com/usa/165612-us-iran-allies ... nsurgency/

Looks like Iran already has troops on the ground to aid Iraq and the USA is going to be doing some combined operations.

[David]

A collaboration that's actually possible with Obama in charge.

Does anyone remember the 2012 elections when various Republican candidates were lining up to talk about bombing Iran? FMD America and the rest of the world dodged a bullet there.

[stui magpie]

Send in an undercover team to utterly frag these dipshits leadership. Nothing nice, aerial bomb them with black plague or calicivirus if needed, just wipe the cnuts out.

I'm sick of these extremist arsewipes who want to take control of vast areas by dragging everything back to the dark ages. Those people deserve better. It's hard enough to get progress in some of these places when everything is aligned your way.

OK, so we won the war over there, screwed up the peace and left an opening for the last mobs deranged little brother. FMD, I'm starting to think Nostradamus was right, it's just a matter of when.

[3.14159]

This is what it looks like when you win a war but lose the peace.

when exactly was the war won?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XzrJwzYBUkU

On April 9, Baghdad fell, ending President Hussein's 24‑year rule. US forces seized the deserted Ba'ath Party ministries and stage-managed[154] the tearing down of a huge iron statue of Hussein, photos and video of which became symbolic of the event, although later controversial.

Post this date it became an occupation and insurgency, and that's where the USA failed. The War itself was a spectacular military success. The US has a habit of spectacular military success followed by abject failure.

It wasn't to unseat Hussain that we went into Iraq.
We were looking for weapons of mass destruction (and to counter terrorism) neither of the missions were successfully completed.

There was about 83,000 men in Iraq in 2003, by 2007 there were 160,000.
There were 581 deaths in the whole of 2003 but nearly 4,000 US deaths 10 years later.

Your claim that tearing down a statue (and chasing a rat into a hole) marked the end of the war is laughable.

[Wokko]

[David]

^ But what if they had cut and run in May 2003? Clearly, their puppet regime wouldn't have lasted days. Would you still call that a resounding victory?

[Wokko]

^ But what if they had cut and run in 2003? Clearly, their puppet regime wouldn't have lasted days. Would you still call that a resounding victory?

Militarily, yes. Same as if the allies had left Germany or Japan in 1945 and said "deal with your own shit". A war and an occupation are two different things imo. It would have been a disaster for Iraq though if they'd just left, but the military campaign would still have been a victory.