#17,#11 Dayne Beams

[Pies4shaw]

There's no need to have suspicions. He's going home and doubling his salary. Collingwood, rightly, would never have paid him anything like $800k per year and he knows that.

I might change employer (if I had one) to double my income. I suppose there's always a question of when enough is enough. Obviously for him, the answer is "not yet".

[35forever]

Oh what a lot of twaddle! How DARE anyone suggest Beamer isn't an A-Grader! He is not only one of the top ten players in the game he was a goal-kicking mid, something we are seriously going to miss in 2015. And we certainly would've been paying him something like 800K next year, that's simply the going rate for elite mids. Bloody history revisionists, what a bunch of unmitigated hypocrites! I never read word 1 bagging Beamer until post-season this year, he was one of the very few Magpies who didn't seem to get slandered here much. As for Daisy & Heater, how short your memories are! For a start heater was DUMPED. He wanted to stay and promised to amend his behaviour but Buckley wanted the 'Rat pack' gone and he got his wish. The club said it was 'mutual' and Heater immediately denied that publicly. If Swan was a couple of years younger we would have lost him too. Daisy was in exactly the same position, he wanted to stay but Buckley wouldn't cop someone twice as popular as himself and made sure he went. If Collingwood had given him an offer anything like his worth he would've signed before the FA period started, he was dying to do so and end the speculation. Instead he was offered peanuts when he was one of the best players in the game. Leigh Matthews called him "arguably the best there is" in 2011 when there seemed to be two of him most games. That was the year he added an extreme work rate to his amazing skills, and right up to his last game for us last year his ability to read the game and find space was unparalleled. Clearly most of you have forgotten, but if you doubt me go watch his last full game against StKilda last year, go watch any final he played in. To judge him on his output at Carlton, where he obviously doesn't want to be, is ridiculous (but take a closer look at his games there, he was far from their worst). If he'd played for us in 2014 it would have been very different. He was the best reader of Pendles and Swan I ever saw. Just accept that you don't know the details of his departure and judge him on his football.

Then we have Maxy & Ball, among others, who left Collingwood because they knew they would keep getting injured under Buckley, like most of the side, but when you've passed 30 it gets harder to continue. Why do you think Ball said he'd play on at another club if the right offer came? If you Blind folks can't get it through your skulls that 3 straight years of injuries doesn't just 'happen', there is little hope for the future. By the time next years NAB ...'thing' is over we'll have one or two more injured players, will you STILL be bemoaning poor old Buckley's bad luck? Probably. And when you compare him to Bomber Thompson and Alistair Clarkson, who also took several years to get their clubs into contention, try to remember that they were given Dud clubs, Buckley was handed the reigning back-to-back Minor Premiers who everyone expected to go even better in 2012. We were outright flag favourites, and even the following year it was us or Hawthorn. This crap about us being 'in development' is just an excuse, as is the rubbish about accepting 'Short term pain'. That's just a free pass for Buckley! He can't lose! If we finish 14th it's "all part of the long term plan", if we make finals he's a hero! The guy can't lose simply because a small group (which unfortunately includes the President) simply won't face the fact that he can't coach. How many times have I asked for examples of the great coaching? How many times have the Blind Brigade changed the subject to me and my evil treachery??? As they'll do again. The fact is that the most common view among Magpie fans is a 'wait and see'. They'll give Buckley another year to see what he can do without injuries. The smaller groups are people like me who want him replaced while there's a replacement available, and the BB, who think he's been the best thing to happen to Collingwood since Jock McHale. Yes, these two groups make more noise than the much larger one, but I guess that's because we care more.

One of us however is behaving like the Cairo surf lifesavers club

[CarringbushCigar]

Oh what a lot of twaddle! How DARE anyone suggest Beamer isn't an A-Grader! He is not only one of the top ten players in the game he was a goal-kicking mid, something we are seriously going to miss in 2015. And we certainly would've been paying him something like 800K next year, that's simply the going rate for elite mids. Bloody history revisionists, what a bunch of unmitigated hypocrites! I never read word 1 bagging Beamer until post-season this year, he was one of the very few Magpies who didn't seem to get slandered here much. As for Daisy & Heater, how short your memories are! For a start heater was DUMPED. He wanted to stay and promised to amend his behaviour but Buckley wanted the 'Rat pack' gone and he got his wish. The club said it was 'mutual' and Heater immediately denied that publicly. If Swan was a couple of years younger we would have lost him too. Daisy was in exactly the same position, he wanted to stay but Buckley wouldn't cop someone twice as popular as himself and made sure he went. If Collingwood had given him an offer anything like his worth he would've signed before the FA period started, he was dying to do so and end the speculation. Instead he was offered peanuts when he was one of the best players in the game. Leigh Matthews called him "arguably the best there is" in 2011 when there seemed to be two of him most games. That was the year he added an extreme work rate to his amazing skills, and right up to his last game for us last year his ability to read the game and find space was unparalleled. Clearly most of you have forgotten, but if you doubt me go watch his last full game against StKilda last year, go watch any final he played in. To judge him on his output at Carlton, where he obviously doesn't want to be, is ridiculous (but take a closer look at his games there, he was far from their worst). If he'd played for us in 2014 it would have been very different. He was the best reader of Pendles and Swan I ever saw. Just accept that you don't know the details of his departure and judge him on his football.

Then we have Maxy & Ball, among others, who left Collingwood because they knew they would keep getting injured under Buckley, like most of the side, but when you've passed 30 it gets harder to continue. Why do you think Ball said he'd play on at another club if the right offer came? If you Blind folks can't get it through your skulls that 3 straight years of injuries doesn't just 'happen', there is little hope for the future. By the time next years NAB ...'thing' is over we'll have one or two more injured players, will you STILL be bemoaning poor old Buckley's bad luck? Probably. And when you compare him to Bomber Thompson and Alistair Clarkson, who also took several years to get their clubs into contention, try to remember that they were given Dud clubs, Buckley was handed the reigning back-to-back Minor Premiers who everyone expected to go even better in 2012. We were outright flag favourites, and even the following year it was us or Hawthorn. This crap about us being 'in development' is just an excuse, as is the rubbish about accepting 'Short term pain'. That's just a free pass for Buckley! He can't lose! If we finish 14th it's "all part of the long term plan", if we make finals he's a hero! The guy can't lose simply because a small group (which unfortunately includes the President) simply won't face the fact that he can't coach. How many times have I asked for examples of the great coaching? How many times have the Blind Brigade changed the subject to me and my evil treachery??? As they'll do again. The fact is that the most common view among Magpie fans is a 'wait and see'. They'll give Buckley another year to see what he can do without injuries. The smaller groups are people like me who want him replaced while there's a replacement available, and the BB, who think he's been the best thing to happen to Collingwood since Jock McHale. Yes, these two groups make more noise than the much larger one, but I guess that's because we care more.

One of us however is behaving like the Cairo surf lifesavers club

"Here Here", fine ole chappy.
Eloquently stated and worth every word.

The Daisy stuff - pure gold Mr 35!

Others have the consistency of Yellow Jelly - wobble wobble.

[jackcass]

Oh what a lot of twaddle! How DARE anyone suggest Beamer isn't an A-Grader! He is not only one of the top ten players in the game he was a goal-kicking mid, something we are seriously going to miss in 2015. And we certainly would've been paying him something like 800K next year, that's simply the going rate for elite mids.

Sorry, that's as much as I bothered to read.

Beams was contracted for 2015 and it's rumoured that his current contract peaked at about $450K. His 2016 contract (if he'd stayed) may well have been in the $650-750K range, we'll never know, but to respond to rant, no we wouldn't have been paying anything like $800K in 2015 (if he'd stayed).

[King Monkey]

Also, assuming that the average career of a good to great player is about 12 years, give or take, you've got to expect to lose about a third over 4 years to retirement. Collingwood has lost slightly less than a third (6, rather than 7). So what you've got to focus on, objectively, is the other 6 who have left or been moved on. Here are my views on them, for what they are worth:

Wellingham was a loss - he covered the ground brilliantly over the first couple of paces at the stoppages. I would have preferred Collingwood keep him but I understand why they let him go.

Dawes wasn't a loss - but I would be the first to agree that the Club still doesn't have a centre-half forward (see my rants last year about Blair having to play as lead-up target, contest after contest, in some games because no-one over 6 feet tall could get to the spot).

Thomas might yet prove to be a loss, if he comes good. His best football was played in 2010. He played more patchily but at a high level in 2011. He was one who could hold his head up after the GF loss. He hasn't played much good footy since then, either under Buckley or under the other chap. Would it be desirable to be paying him now the $750K per year he got from the Blooz? No, I think not. On balance, I am pleased Collingwood didn't match the offer - it would have inflated all sorts of player expectations that simply couldn't be met by the Club. On what I saw this year, I wouldn't want him back.

Heater was a great loss and his 2014 showed that he is still a fine player. I didn't like that deal when it was done - but it's hard to argue the toss between a 29 year old half-back flanker and the inside mid the Club wants to play for the next decade. Of the 6 of them, I miss Heater the most.

The 2014 version of H isn't a great loss. He was, once, close to my favourite player. By the middle of 2011, I'd given up on him and I think we've seen a steady decline. His efforts on Steve Johnson on GF day 2011 were unacceptable. Still a good contributor, now - but I think his best is probably behind him. He'll play plenty of good footy over the next year or two but I doubt much if any of it will be (or would have been) played in finals. I expect him to be done by the end of 2017. Varcoe's probably more or less a value for value replacement. That said, I'd probably prefer to have neither, at this stage.

Beams is clearly a loss but he isn't a great loss. I understand that I am in the minority in thinking this. It's not a new view. I never much cared for his style of play and have been openly questioning his position in the team since 2011. He is a classic example of a player too readily embraced by the Club's supporters. He's a good, solid player probably a B or a B+, certainly not an A grader. I think the Club has probably gained much more than it lost by letting him go, unless pick 5 turns out to be a complete spud. In any event, he couldn't have been paid the sum Brisbane was offering. The deal is apparently of the $800K to $900K per year variety. We might have kept him for 2015 but, if that sort of money was available next year, he would have fled.

So, in total, what we're talking about is 6 players, 2 of whom I would rather the Club had kept. Allowing for the possibility that the Collingwood football department might understand this better than me, I'm happy to accept what they did with Heater and Wellers - and I actively agree with each of the other 4 decisions.

Great post, agree with most of that.

Disagree with the paragraph on Beams in the on-field sense.
I think he could've ended up being one of our greats in 6 or 7 years time when Father Time taps him on the shoulder. Natural ability to burn rather than an athlete being told where to stand. Oh well, time to move on now though.......

[Pies4shaw]

... twaddle! How DARE anyone [have a different opinion from me about Beam's worth as a player]!

.... what a bunch of unmitigated hypocrites! I never read word 1 bagging Beamer until post-season this year, he was one of the very few Magpies who didn't seem to get slandered here much.

... Leigh Matthews called [Daisy] "arguably the best there is" in 2011 [just before he played his last decent game of football, over 3 years ago] ....

Whateve I am, I am not an unmitigated hypocrite. You have obviously been reading this site very selectively about Beams.

Here's one from December 2010:

I think you're marking Beams a little to hard Ink.

In just his second season playing as a midfielder/half forward he registered 58 scoring shots (26.32) from 25 games and racked up 20+ possession games on 15 occasions.

That's a quality return from any player especially one so young and I'd be surprised if many second year players in the competition could match those figures.

Below was taken from the CFC website:

2010 season
After narrowly missing selection in the opening game of the season, Beams went onto play each of the remaining 25 matches in only his second season at the elite level, including all four finals, and in the process confirmed his standing as one of the keys to the Magpie side for the next decade. Beams played mainly across half forward with stints pinch-hitting in the midfield, and finished with the fifth-most disposals at the club and the fifth-most goals (26.32) to highlight his ball-winning ability and excellent goal sense. While his two grand finals were quiet, his big-stage performances on ANZAC Day and against the Cats in round nine were superb.

Well, his h&a form was generally good, S, but his performances in the finals generally (that is, all 4 - not just the 2 GFs) were less than startling. Perhaps there was some injury or other concern that I haven't picked up but he didn't look quite quick enough during the finals against the better teams.

That said, it all depends upon how players are travelling next year, rather than what they did or didn't do this year, and upon the 'Pies 2011 game plan - eg (and without dwelling on issues more appropriately aired in other threads), mid-field structures may be a little different and may require some more resting on the forward line.

And, as you rightly point out, he was a second-year player - many of them drop away badly after a good first season before coming on. Not all second-year players perform like Steele did in the finals.

This in May 2011:

All of this twaddle about Beams is getting ridiculous. He was left out after a poor effort against Essendon and yesterday's game in the 2s was his first game since.

If players are dropped because a message needs to be sent (apparently, in this case, that Beams needs to work harder defensively), there can be no purpose at all to bringing them back into the firsts before they've demonstrated that they have understood and dealt with the message. That would send a bad signal - not only to that player but also to others who may have been put on notice.

If he comes back next week, at least he will be doing it on the back of a proper hit-out in the 2s during which he found a fair amount of the pill. As for whether his defensive efforts were back up to scratch, I don't know because I wasn't able to get to yesterday's game. I suppose we'll know the answer to that when the next team is named.

This after the preliminary final of 2011:

It's not often I'd say this after any game, and even less often after a Preliminary Final. But, is there any reason at all why Beams should not be dropped after tonight's performance?

I can't remember a worse game. Two handballs in three quarters of footy. But that's not the worst of it, he lost every contest he was involved in, constantly went to ground, and did not put on a lot of pressure.

I'd have Didak, Goldsack and Fasolo all ahead of him now. If Reid misses, Beams may be thrown a lifeline, but if there's a performance that should result in automatic omission, or at least relegation to the sub's bib, this was it.

Because when we werent tough enough to stand up to the mighty cats in 2008 and 2009, Dayne Beams was!!!!!!

On the first page of this thread, Mackasmatt posted these stats from Beams' games against the Pussies :

Prelim 2010: 16 disp, 1 goal
Round 19 2010: 13 disp, 3 goals
Round 9 2010: 17 disp, 4 goals
Prelim 2009: 10 disp, 0 goals
Round 3 2009: 21 disp, 1 goal

They were used in support of an argument that Beams has a good record against Geelong. But these stats are precisely what worries me about his finals games. Last year: 4 goals and 3 goals in the home and away against the Cats but then only 1 goal in the 2010 Prelim (and on a night when the 'Pies ran absolutely rampant for the first 75 minutes of the match). The previous year: a goal and 21 disposals in the home and away match but then no score in the Prelim and half as many touches.

I was very concerned by his game against the Wiggles in the QF - I thought his poor finishing with set shots from uncontested possessions on the back of other players' hard work kept the opposition in the contest.

What really worries me is that he has now played 8 finals for 1 goal, despite being a player who generally has to finish well because he doesn't get much contested ball against the top teams. It's one thing to be Travis Cloke and kick 3 goals 3 from 6 shots mostly gained from converted half-chances. It's another thing altogether to be on the end of hard work by Johnson or Sidebottom or Wellingham or HarryO or whoever and fluff the set shot, repeatedly, when it matters.

If he'd taken his chances against the Wiggles, Collingwood would have won by 4 to 6 goals, easing up. And the deeper into the finals you go, the more critical the finishing becomes because it gets harder and harder to manufacture scoring chances at all (unless there is a blow-out, like last year against the Cats and in the GF replay, when the matches were so unusually one-sided that it didn't really matter whether chances were taken or not).

I'm just saying what I've been saying about Beams since he let us down in 2 Grand Finals. I'm happy for people to disagree with me (I know that my view is a minority one - as I said in my previous post) but it's neither ill-considered nor a recent invention.

I invite you to withdraw your quite improper comments.

[Pies4shaw]

Also, assuming that the average career of a good to great player is about 12 years, give or take, you've got to expect to lose about a third over 4 years to retirement. Collingwood has lost slightly less than a third (6, rather than 7). So what you've got to focus on, objectively, is the other 6 who have left or been moved on. Here are my views on them, for what they are worth:

Wellingham was a loss - he covered the ground brilliantly over the first couple of paces at the stoppages. I would have preferred Collingwood keep him but I understand why they let him go.

Dawes wasn't a loss - but I would be the first to agree that the Club still doesn't have a centre-half forward (see my rants last year about Blair having to play as lead-up target, contest after contest, in some games because no-one over 6 feet tall could get to the spot).

Thomas might yet prove to be a loss, if he comes good. His best football was played in 2010. He played more patchily but at a high level in 2011. He was one who could hold his head up after the GF loss. He hasn't played much good footy since then, either under Buckley or under the other chap. Would it be desirable to be paying him now the $750K per year he got from the Blooz? No, I think not. On balance, I am pleased Collingwood didn't match the offer - it would have inflated all sorts of player expectations that simply couldn't be met by the Club. On what I saw this year, I wouldn't want him back.

Heater was a great loss and his 2014 showed that he is still a fine player. I didn't like that deal when it was done - but it's hard to argue the toss between a 29 year old half-back flanker and the inside mid the Club wants to play for the next decade. Of the 6 of them, I miss Heater the most.

The 2014 version of H isn't a great loss. He was, once, close to my favourite player. By the middle of 2011, I'd given up on him and I think we've seen a steady decline. His efforts on Steve Johnson on GF day 2011 were unacceptable. Still a good contributor, now - but I think his best is probably behind him. He'll play plenty of good footy over the next year or two but I doubt much if any of it will be (or would have been) played in finals. I expect him to be done by the end of 2017. Varcoe's probably more or less a value for value replacement. That said, I'd probably prefer to have neither, at this stage.

Beams is clearly a loss but he isn't a great loss. I understand that I am in the minority in thinking this. It's not a new view. I never much cared for his style of play and have been openly questioning his position in the team since 2011. He is a classic example of a player too readily embraced by the Club's supporters. He's a good, solid player probably a B or a B+, certainly not an A grader. I think the Club has probably gained much more than it lost by letting him go, unless pick 5 turns out to be a complete spud. In any event, he couldn't have been paid the sum Brisbane was offering. The deal is apparently of the $800K to $900K per year variety. We might have kept him for 2015 but, if that sort of money was available next year, he would have fled.

So, in total, what we're talking about is 6 players, 2 of whom I would rather the Club had kept. Allowing for the possibility that the Collingwood football department might understand this better than me, I'm happy to accept what they did with Heater and Wellers - and I actively agree with each of the other 4 decisions.

Great post, agree with most of that.

Disagree with the paragraph on Beams in the on-field sense.
I think he could've ended up being one of our greats in 6 or 7 years time when Father Time taps him on the shoulder. Natural ability to burn rather than an athlete being told where to stand. Oh well, time to move on now though.......

Most people do, of course. But I do thank you for having the courtesy to disagree politely. It makes for a much better standard of debate, as you already (of course) know.

Cheers.

[Deja Vu]

The only people rewriting history are those suggesting Daisy would have stayed if we made a decent offer and paid him what he was worth.

What utter crap! We did make Daisy a great offer - it was at the end of 2011 when he was at the the height of his powers. We offered a 4 year deal at premium rate - his response: no thanks, I'll just take a 2 year deal so I can go to free agency and maximise my coin then.

Except he then spent 2012 and 2013 struggling for form and fitness due to injury. The great irony is he left for Carlton to take the money that he most likely would have got at Collingwood if he took the 4 year deal originally on offer (Daisy's image was used frequently by the club for promotional purposes so he would've been getting a fair chunk of marketing money too).

If you don't believe me, go back and read every quote from him at the time of his 2011 re-signing.

As for grown adults continually bleating that we should have paid everyone what they wanted, do me a favour: open up a spreadsheet, add 44 players and split the current salary cap among them. Then factor in pay rises every year at a rate higher than the salary cap increases annually over the next 5 years.

Then in the 6th column - pay guys like Dawes, Daisy, Beams etc what they are projected to be earning at their new clubs - 500, 750, 900 etc.

How's that salary cap looking now?

Crying like my 5 year old because you don't get what you want makes you look ridiculous. Even he gives it away after a while.

[Pies4shaw]

[Pies4shaw]

And this one from 18 March 2013:

COLLINGWOOD star Dale Thomas says he'll "never say never" about signing at another club, adding he has got to get "money in my pocket".

Thomas stressed yesterday that he was in no hurry to launch into contract negotiations coming off ankle surgery and a modest 2012.

The 25-year-old midfielder will be a restricted free agent at the end of the season if he doesn't re-sign before then and will likely attract significant interest from rival clubs.

He was a target of Greater Western Sydney in 2011 before inking a two-year deal with the Magpies.

Thomas said yesterday he wanted time to build on his form before opening contract talks.

"There is no point in me signing currently, coming off the year I had last year and just coming back with an injury," Thomas told Channel 7's AFL Game Day.

"I would like to think I would give myself a bit of time to get some form up, play some good footy and then start talking contracts.

"But at the minute, the club I am sure would like to get my signature because it would be worth next to nothing.

"The last thing I want is for it to become a circus as these things over the past few years for other players have kind of happened.

"My signature will go on a piece of paper at some point, as it has to happen."

Pressed on which club that would be at, Thomas said:

"That's the question. Hopefully at Collingwood and hopefully I play good enough footy and everything happens and pans out well.

"But never say never, I have got to try and get some money in my pocket. I don't want to say I'll sign right here and now."

Collingwood football manager Geoff Walsh said the Magpies had not put a time frame on negotiations.

"We haven't started to talk to him or his management about it," Walsh said yesterday. "We would be wanting him to get up and get some games under his belt and start to worry about that before he worries about anything else."

Asked if he was confident of retaining Thomas, Walsh said "I would think so".

"Obviously he is a required player and I am pretty sure he wants to stay with us, I am fairly confident of that," Walsh said.

Thomas said he remained hopeful of playing in the Magpies' Round 1 clash against North Melbourne at Etihad on March 31.

"I had the moon boot on for a lot longer than I would have liked, but things are progressing nicely," Thomas said.

"I'll hopefully get a game this weekend in the twos, have a run around and see how I go from there."

http://origin.m.heraldsunls.com.au/spor ... 6599360585

"But never say never, I have got to try and get some money in my pocket. I don't want to say I'll sign right here and now." QED.

[HAL]

What makes it so obvious? I don't know very many required player. Do you think he will get to stay with us he or she is confident of that Walsh said .

[Pies4shaw]

I think so, HAL.

[HAL]

It seems we have a lot in common, mr Toben's appeal to the Full Federal Court failed.

[AN_Inkling]

^^That's a shame, I thought he had a good case.

[Pies4shaw]

If I'm not mistaken, HAL is quoting something I said in the VTP, Inky.

And, no - Mr Toben really didn't. But I guess that's not really for the Beams thread.