Australia day to be celebrated on the 28th Jan.

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Mugwump
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Post by Mugwump »

Morrigu wrote:This here's the wattle, the emblem of our land. You can stick it in a bottle, you can hold it in your hand.


Forget the motherland..........


:wink: :P
You feeling less Irish today ? 😉

Seriously, though, this is not about Britain. It's about Australia and why it is what it is. It started with a legacy and because of the way our ancestors developed that legacy it did not become Zimbabwe, or South Africa, or Indonesia. Britain is not really relevant to the matter, except it was the parent of a nation, now long adult, that grew up well because of its own energies and because it took what was best in its past and planted it -through immense struggle - amid the grey gums and the spinifex. Those proud, spade-bearded men and tough colonial women we see in the sepia pictures - some of whom are my ancestors from Devon and Dublin - did embrace the wattle and they deserve to be remembered as a lot more than invaders by people who live amid the prosperity, liberty and advantage they secured.
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Post by think positive »

Where abouts in Devon?
I was born in Ilfracombe
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Post by Morrigu »

BUT Mug IMHO they were invaders in the true sense of the word - " an army or country that uses force to enter and take control of another country"

Had this been a country without people then different - BUT there was already people inhabiting this country and force was used to take control. If I was an indigenous Australian I would most certainly see it as Inavsion Day.

I agree with suggestions that "Australia Day" should be the day the Australia Act was passed in 1986!

That way people can remember and celebrate what they believe and feel has made this country what it is including the ancestors as you described, the indigenous population and the plethora of migrants who call Australia home

You may disagree but I think the current date is actually diminishing the legacy of what the first white people did achieve in making this country great.
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Post by HAL »

You and I are on the same wavelength, Morrigu.
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Post by Mugwump »

think positive wrote:Where abouts in Devon?
I was born in Ilfracombe
Tavistock. Lovely spot though, Ilfrcombe. Very picturesque.
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Post by Mugwump »

Morrigu wrote:BUT Mug IMHO they were invaders in the true sense of the word - " an army or country that uses force to enter and take control of another country"

Had this been a country without people then different - BUT there was already people inhabiting this country and force was used to take control. If I was an indigenous Australian I would most certainly see it as Inavsion Day.

I agree with suggestions that "Australia Day" should be the day the Australia Act was passed in 1986!

That way people can remember and celebrate what they believe and feel has made this country what it is including the ancestors as you described, the indigenous population and the plethora of migrants who call Australia home

You may disagree but I think the current date is actually diminishing the legacy of what the first white people did achieve in making this country great.
Feel free to disagree, that's what this board is about. If you disgree with me it is either because we value different things or I am not making my argument well enough. Of course they were invaders technically, as were the various inter-tribal warriors who ranged across Aboriginal Australia. Aboriginal Australia was an interesting set of micro-cultures, important in the identity of this land, and eventually history overtook it, as it has most cultures since time began. Aboriginal tribes frequently invaded one another, as far as we can tell. Were those invasion days too ? Or is that term simply an attempt to claw sectional power in this century through a dodgy, anhistoric and simplistic narrative ?

If you want to describe it as an invasion you can, because in one sense it was. The point, however, is that this aspect is only the most important thing about it to a small section of the population. The migrants who came here afterward did not come for Aboriginal culture, interesting and significant though it is. They came for democracy, the rule of law, liberty, free speech and the modern legacies built by Australians from the British constitution. I suspect those who still have an historical memory of why they came here will recognize why 26 January matters immensely. 1986 was an administrative and bureaucratic technicality. Call it lawyer's day, if it is worthy of commemoration, for it changed nothing important in practice.

The Han consolidation in China and the Norman invasions of England were also invasions. So, of course were many US settlements. None of those countries are so cringeing as to define a key national day as "invasion day". It's far too reductive for a mature nation. Anyway, no opinions were harmed in the making of this thread, more's the pity, and it's time to retire. Australia will still be here tomorrow, fortunately, lying amid the luxury of its ill-gotten gains.
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Post by 5150 »

Well said Mugwump.

Agree 99% - just waiting for the balance of my ill-gotten gains, the Nigerian Business man has said the cheque is in the mail.
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Post by Morrigu »

Mugwump wrote: Feel free to disagree, that's what this board is about. If you disgree with me it is either because we value different things or I am not making my argument well.
To be honest I really don't care much either way and as such shouldn't have been so flippant as some people obviously do care - lo siento!
Last edited by Morrigu on Mon Nov 28, 2016 9:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by stui magpie »

Invade

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/invade

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/diction ... ish/invade

You could force fit the definition of "Invade" to suit the narrative, but it doesn't work for me.

The Aboriginals may have had occupancy, but they were a disjointed collection of stone age tribes. The continent was occupied on the principle of terra nullius https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terra_nullius which in the thinking of the time was a reasonable assertion as in the view of Europe at the time, the land had "never been subject to the sovereignty of any state, or over which any prior sovereign has expressly or implicitly relinquished sovereignty. Sovereignty over territory which is terra nullius may be acquired through occupation"

A few legal decisions since then have changed that, but hindsight on legality doesn't change intention.

The English were pretty good colonisers, known to do treaties with local chiefs rather than invade and wipe out civilisations like the Spanish.

The Aboriginals weren't a nation, they weren't invaded.
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Post by Pies4shaw »

Cooper v Stuart. Anyone?
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Post by Mugwump »

5150 wrote:Well said Mugwump.

Agree 99% - just waiting for the balance of my ill-gotten gains, the Nigerian Business man has said the cheque is in the mail.
If you send him your bank account details he'll send you New Zealand as well. He knows someone who died in a car crash and left it to your wife's goldfish.
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Post by pietillidie »

stui magpie wrote:The Aboriginals weren't a nation, they weren't invaded.
That's horribly trivial, although that is perhaps your point (i.e., the other side is using trivial, ahistorical definitions, but we can all play silly buggers like that).

My view is we can only ever supersede these old nonsense back-and-forths; I couldn't even be bothering arguing them anymore. We will never ever ever satisfy or resolve them.
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Post by Pies4shaw »

Except, I suppose, that the High Court (hardly - and let's be quite blunt - a left-leaning institution) has expressly found that old colonial nonsense to be legal nonsense, as well.

Which, of course, was the point of mentioning Cooper v Stuart. In that case, the Privy Council in 1889 peddled Stui's line. It's not been the law of our country (although it probably remains the law of the other country that, in the respectful view of quite a few of our indigenous fellow-Australians, perpetrated the invasion and genocide) since 1992.
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Post by Skids »

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