The murderous disaster of Robodebt

[partypie]

A friend of mine received a letter claiming she had been overpaid family payment. She rang Centrelink and none of the four people she spoke to could explain how the overpayment occurred or how it was calculated. When she got upset she was offered to be put through to Lifeline

[Mugwump]

I don't have a problem with going after people who have rorted the system. The problem here is that they're using inaccurate, faulty data to send thousands of people who haven't done anything wrong "now prove you're innocent" penalty notices. Miss a Centrelink letter (it happens), fail to sort it out on time or fail to come up with the right documentation and you could be hit with a wrongful fine of a few thousand dollars. What's wrong with that picture?

As I said, stuff-ups happen. That's to be expected. But it's the fact that the government is acting as if everything's fine that makes this such an absurd example of authoritarian incompetence.

On Centrelink in general, I'm sure I'm not alone in suspecting that the entire system is set up to be as inefficient and unwieldy as possible. The mere act of getting in contact with them, whether face to face or by phone, is an absolute ordeal. If it's just about lack of resources, then fair enough (though that's something government has complete control over, so...). Otherwise, unless you actively believe in the virtue of making unemployed, disabled and low-income people suffer, it really shouldn't be that way.

Agree with your first paragraph. But are you surprised that the vast bureaucratic state that we have put in place is overstretched, unresponsive, and mostly indifferent to the human realities it administers ?

[David]

How would you better organise welfare payments if not via government bureaucracy, though? I'm not sure privatising it would make things much better (have any countries actually ever tried that successfully?).

[Mugwump]

How would you better organise welfare payments if not via government bureaucracy, though? I'm not sure privatising it would make things much better (have any countries actually ever tried that successfully?).

I was not thinking of privatising it, which would probably only replace one insensitive bureaucracy with another. In theory, these kinds of overpayments might be recovered from a private provider's profits rather than stricken welfare recipients, and private providers could be given a financial incentive to meet "customer" (aka recipient) satisfaction targets... but history seems to say that this does not really work either.

And I do not have an answer, other than to note that history shows that the larger the bureaucracy, the more it will treat ordinary people badly. Given that, a possible way forward is to reduce the number of people dependent on welfare by providing a citizen's basic income linked to at least a few days mandatory work, administered locally. I still find it astonishing that the state pays anyone for doing no work across an extended period of time. In my more radical moments, I'd include pensioners in this up to, say, 75 years old. This is such a waste of potential, and often a pathway to loneliness and social alienation.

[Culprit]

I don't mind chasing up over payments but let's do the maths. Joe Blogs - PS6 in the Government would be earning $78000 a year. Shazza with 6 kids has been over paid say $6000. We get Joe Blogs to work over a month and finds the glitch and sends out the letter knowing that Shazza has no chance of ever paying the money back in full in one go. Shazza will be put on a $10 a week plan. That will take over 11 years to recoup the money and if interest occurs it will take longer. The last report is 26 million calls went unanswered at Centrelink. Now let's be conservative and say 1% of those calls had clients trying to report over payment of $100 and could not get through. Wow $26 million saved if we answered the F'n phone. Heaven forbid we look at a cost benefit analysis.

This is nothing more than a vote gathering exercise to appease the dumb Aussie who can't think outside the square. And to the suckers that think this is actually about getting back $500 million into the budget need to realise this is just smoke and mirrors (data manipulation). No money will go back as the people are still on welfare have no fkn money to pay back.

If Turdbull and Co obtained 1% tax out of the multinationals who currently avoid paying tax, they could achieve far more that $500 million of money that actually won't arrive. But hey, Dole cheats is a better headline.

[HAL]

I've met quite a few people with the name joe.

[Pies4shaw]

I don't mind chasing up over payments but let's do the maths. Joe Blogs - PS6 in the Government would be earning $78000 a year. Shazza with 6 kids has been over paid say $6000. We get Joe Blogs to work over a month and finds the glitch and sends out the letter knowing that Shazza has no chance of ever paying the money back in full in one go. Shazza will be put on a $10 a week plan. That will take over 11 years to recoup the money and if interest occurs it will take longer. The last report is 26 million calls went unanswered at Centrelink. Now let's be conservative and say 1% of those calls had clients trying to report over payment of $100 and could not get through. Wow $26 million saved if we answered the F'n phone. Heaven forbid we look at a cost benefit analysis.

This is nothing more than a vote gathering exercise to appease the dumb Aussie who can't think outside the square. And to the suckers that think this is actually about getting back $500 million into the budget need to realise this is just smoke and mirrors (data manipulation). No money will go back as the people are still on welfare have no fkn money to pay back.

If Turdbull and Co obtained 1% tax out of the multinationals who currently avoid paying tax, they could achieve far more that $500 million of money that actually won't arrive. But hey, Dole cheats is a better headline.

Yes. Consider the possible content of another letter that we can be completely confident is not being routinely sent by Centrelink:

"Dear Madam,

Centrelink engages in routine data-matching of its records about you against the records about you held by certain other Government agencies.

Recent data-matching we have performed indicates that you may have been substantially underpaid your Centrelink entitlements.

Accordingly, we require you to produce evidence within 21 days to establish that the entitlements you have received are correct. If you fail to do so, we reserve the right to deposit into your nominated bank account forthwith the whole of the sum we believe we may have underpaid to you."

What are the chances?

[Culprit]

^^^Buckley's. Pardon the Pun

[Tannin]

I'm sure if people don't actually owe anything they will be able to prove so and throw it in the bin.

Wrong.

Centrelink tells people to keep payslips for six months. Robodebt is sending out these threat letters for payments going back six years.

Many people have no way to disprove these false allegations.

We are looking at a major class action against the government here. Plus a Senate inquiry. This is turning into the biggest government clustercluck decasdes.

[Culprit]

I'm sure if people don't actually owe anything they will be able to prove so and throw it in the bin.

Wrong.

Centrelink tells people to keep payslips for six months. Robodebt is sending out these threat letters for payments going back six years.

Many people have no way to disprove these false allegations.

We are looking at a major class action against the government here. Plus a Senate inquiry. This is turning into the biggest government clustercluck decasdes.

NBN beats it

[Culprit]

http://www.theage.com.au/federal-politi ... tlmgl.html

[stui magpie]

Whoever did the programming for the "Robot" they're using (or more correctly, who wrote the specs for the programmer) should be sacked. Elemental mistakes.

[Dave The Man]

I don't have a problem with going after people who have rorted the system. The problem here is that they're using inaccurate, faulty data to send thousands of people who haven't done anything wrong "now prove you're innocent" penalty notices. Miss a Centrelink letter (it happens), fail to sort it out on time or fail to come up with the right documentation and you could be hit with a wrongful fine of a few thousand dollars. What's wrong with that picture?

As I said, stuff-ups happen. That's to be expected. But it's the fact that the government is acting as if everything's fine that makes this such an absurd example of authoritarian incompetence.

On Centrelink in general, I'm sure I'm not alone in suspecting that the entire system is set up to be as inefficient and unwieldy as possible. The mere act of getting in contact with them, whether face to face or by phone, is an absolute ordeal. If it's just about lack of resources, then fair enough (though that's something government has complete control over, so...). Otherwise, unless you actively believe in the virtue of making unemployed, disabled and low-income people suffer, it really shouldn't be that way.

The Libs in Charge would make it hard for People to get Welfare even when they need it.

They would get rid of just about all Welfare IF they had the Chance. Just to save $$$$$

[Pies4shaw]

^^^ Dave, I don't think it is actually about saving $$$$ - it's an ideological campaign directed to making poor people who are dependent upon benefits feel worthless. I doubt that they would much care if it cost them $600M to recover $300M - the ritual humiliation and scape-goating is its own reward.

[think positive]

Not sure if that's your usual sarcasm!

I really don't believe that, maybe if all the damn cheats stopped cheating, the budget wouldn't have blown out. I know a couple of people who, at least in the past, not sure if they still do, have really cheated the system, I don't care if it's legal cheating, it's immoral. Stop the cheats, and then the people who really need it, get the help they need and only the total bastards will be left whinging.

For example, a millionaire hiding behind his super scheme and claiming low income benifits and a health care card. A woman working from home, cash hairdresser, who's husband left her and their two kids for a while, claiming the pension and a health. Care card, and continuing to do so after he came back. She actually bragged about getting a discount at the semi private school our kids attended.

damn disgusting.