Freedom of speech

[Pies4shaw]

[David]

You may think he nailed it, I don't. I get the irony of the free speech/what they were fighting for. It's also about decorum and respect, sadly such things are disappearing.

But then you would be happy to let go of merry christmas, good Friday, etc etc. by watering down yet another traditional Day, one that the entire country can get together on, is always going to piss people off. I am old enough to remember the treatment of Vietnam vets back in the 70's still, (my history knowledge is crap, it could be the movies told me about it, but I do remember a doco, so if it all reconciled before then, I apologise and accept that) and how good it was when they finally got the recognition they deserved.

I find it hard to take you serioulsy on these subjects because you do come across as having very little respect for traditions, for service personnel (and here is the thing, we all hate war, we all think it is wasteful, stupid, irrational, but some times you do indeed have to fight to protect your own, or in defence of others, wether the particular defence is a good or bad thing, wether the reason is secretly oil blah blah blah, is not in this discussion, but I thought I'd mention it!) and we all know you don't believe in religion of any kind, as is your right. I won't bore you with telling you who defends those rights!

While I'm not going to get a massive Anzac tattoo on my chest as one of my nephews did, I really enjoy Anzac Day, and I even watch the occasional doco around this time. Even when it's not Anzac Day, if I see an old digger with his medals somewhere, I will tell him "thankyou for your service". It costs nothing, and it brightens their day. And anyway, I mean it. Many of My family in England have a service background, both my parents did. I know the personal cost. I won't bore you with the details, and even though Anzac Day is not about them, it is to me, it's a day to remember not just the fallen, but the damaged, and those left behind.

It's an Aussie, and Kiwi thing. I'm sure wherever she comes from has national days. Go to her country and try what she tried, you won't just get public condemnation I'm guessing.

Fact is, if she wasn't a media person, her illtimed tweet would have gone unnoticed, aside from her Aussie friends being upset, but she has a public pedestal and She deliberately used it to put her own political agenda forward, and she would have known it would annoy people. Yes she's entitled to do that. And the public is entitled to turn on her.

I really don't want to live in some vanilla place, where we all keep quite about historical stuff for fear of upsetting someone. I like Christmas, I like Anzac Day. While I'm not going to celebrate Passover anytime soon, I'm not going to trample on it either, and that's what she did. It wasn't accidental. and since we are still talking about it, she's succeeded, and if it backfires on her, tough titties.

Might hav been different if she had first said something respectful about the anzacs, but it comes across as a **** you

I think you're actually totally wrong about everyone hating war. Peter Dutton and many of his Liberal Party colleagues don't hate war one bit; on the contrary, they can't wait for the next one. They don't even need the phone call from the White House; just the sound of a telephone ring and they'll be committing another few thousand young men and women to useless deaths.

This is the thing that I think Rundle gets so right: Anzac Day is not some apolitical event that can only be read in a certain way, or treated with a certain kind of reverence. Did you really mean to compare it to Passover? Either way, that's a fitting analogy for how many people are treating it now: as a high holy day on the calendar that must be treated only with respectful piety. When government figures are acting like Patriarchs of the Orthodox Church personally seeking out and condemning heretical readings of the day, one starts to wonder about things like the separation of church and state.

Anzac Day is not and never has been apolitical. Right from its origins as a means to recruit more young men for the Western European meat mincer with tales of brave sacrifice on the battlefield to its current treatment by the tabloids as a day to celebrate militarism and attack foreigners, it's always had various agendas behind it. Some of us choose to view it as a reminder of the horror and futility of war, but we need to remember that many people do not see it that way.

In any case, the response to this social media post speaks for itself: as Rundle says, the outrage is self-evidently stupid and fascistic, and demonstrates some truly alarming things about our culture. Those of us who care about free speech must ensure we don't let it pass, even if we're just restating the obvious.

[stui magpie]

I think you're actually totally wrong about everyone hating war. Peter Dutton and many of his Liberal Party colleagues don't hate war one bit; on the contrary, they can't wait for the next one. They don't even need the phone call from the White House; just the sound of a telephone ring and they'll be committing another few thousand young men and women to useless deaths.

Well, in the spirit of free speech, you're entitled to hold and express that opinion.

Unfortunately, it's a dead set fkn stupid one.

[Mugwump]

^ Trundle is playing the usual postmodernist game here. Pretend that symbols can have any meaning you choose, and then after a little while they become meaningless and you can sweep them away and replace them with more "appropriate" symbols. The meaning of these more appropriate symbols would, of course, then be policed rigorously by the army of the new righteous.

It's perfectly possible to see Anzac Day in very different ways. To me, it is an occasion for solemn remembrance and gratitude, so I dislike the whiff of nationalism, and almost of reflected glory, that seems to adhere to it nowadays. All of these perspectives are quite legitimate, however, because the day does have a boundary of purpose and meaning - To remember the people who sacrificed their lives or their blood for the Australian nation in war. Despite what Rundle says, there is nothing "fascistic" or "stupid" about insisting upon that purpose. Meanings do not have to be monolithic - but they do have limits, or they cease to be meanings at all.

Seeing it in different ways, however, is not the same as equating it to something that has no relation to its original meaning. That is simply an act of bad faith, and of negation. That is what this ignorant young woman did, presumably because her primary allegiance is to the religion of the Arabian warlord rather than to Australia. I suspect she is just an ignorant and insensitive fool, but she is young and that is forgivable in the young, so calling for her to be sacked from the national broadcaster is crass. She probably should be sacked, ultimately, from the ABC because she is stupid and has no interesting ideas, but not for her "views" re Anzac Day.

[stui magpie]

Meanwhile, back at the factory, Bill and Herb discuss their next project.

B: I'm bored, politics is boring here, we need to do something
H: Well if you'd a put those personality chips into Turnbull and Shorten like you were told...........
B: Those things were faulty. You saw what happened with Krudd. Gillard's was glitchy, only kicked in sometimes but if you hadn't put that shitty larynx in and uploaded the "how to give a speech" module. Anyway, wasn't worth the risk but we got a new batch from the US factory.
H: Trump???
B: nah, that's all natural
H. OK, What i reckon is, lets have some fun.
B: I'm interested, keep talking
H: One of our early prototypes, Pauline, she's still kicking on.
B: yeaaaaah? She's had more comebacks than lazarus but she's still a joke to the left.
H: I know, so here's the gig. Let's make a younger, left wing version of Pauline. Just for shits and giggles.
B: Are you on drugs? Sorry, stupid question. of course you are, so am I , but WTF are you talking about?
H: lets shake shit up. We've still got the specs, attention seeking, IQ of a potted palm, media whore, says dumb stuff but still get's people defending her, benign level of sex appeal to disturbed people. Let's make another one but this time, a left wing version.
B: pass me that joint and keep talking
H: Could be fun. OK, so no one with an IQ over 60 will take her serious, but......we could even put her on the ABC as a presenter rather than a Pollie.
B: That's good shit.
H: Yeah, I know this chemist bloke, used to do work with Essendon
B: Tell ya what, i'm in. On one condition if you really want to do this for shits and giggles.
H: What's the condition?
B: We also make her Muslim
H: You're a fkn genius man, I love it. Lets get to work
B: Can we start after lunch? I feel like a kebab.

[HAL]

The Time Machine is cool.

[Mugwump]

^ very good, Stui.

[David]

[Mugwump]

I'd have said that the Howard Govt commitment in Iraq was, from memory, pretty negligible, and about the minimum possible that was consistent with our alliance. Not sure how you would draw from that the conclusion that they do not have a hatred, or strong distaste for, war. I'd say it implies the opposite. I don't much like the Australian Liberal (Libertarian) party, but I would not be so quick to level the grave charge that they actually like war.

[David]

Whatever human distaste individual members of the Liberal Party have for warfare, I think their enthusiasm for the politics of getting involved in one seems stronger.

I don't mean to single them out; Labor aren't much better. One thing we can be assured of is that when the US calls, we'll come running like the lapdogs we are. I'm not aware of anyone who seriously disputes this point.

[Mugwump]

^ I'm sure we will do what an alliance demands. I do not consider that fulfilling my part in a deal that I made in my own interests makes me a lapdog of anybody. If you think we're safer without the US Alliance that is arguable, though I strongly disagree. We would have been occupied by Japan in 1942 and we do not have the capacity alone to resist aggression from Indonesia or China, should that day ever come.

[HAL]

Where do you get your ideas?

[David]

I'm not saying we shouldn't be in an alliance with the US. New Zealand are allied with the US too, but don't seem to feel quite as much of a need to hitch a ride on every American military adventure. Not only do we always end up on board, we seem perversely eager about it.

There are allies, and then there are, in the immortal words of crazy Uncle Mark, "a conga line of suckholes". Our current lot (government and opposition) are no better.

[Mugwump]

^ well, I can agree that each issue needs to be considered within the context of the alliance and its demands, but I don't think we were excessive in committing Australian lives and resources to the Iraq debacle - it was hardly at great scale. Even though I opposed that ill-conceived adventure , I think we were obliged to support our ally if we want support in turn, and we did so at a reasonable minimum.

[think positive]

Funny Stui, well done!

David I don't even know what Passover is, and I don't care, it means nothing to me, I'm not going to bag it, or use it to score points, that's all I meant, it was the first thing I thought of.

She did it for attention, she got it, maybe not what, or more than, she bargained for, all she has done is taken her reputation down with her.