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Skids
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Post by Skids »

Mugwump wrote:
Skids wrote:Isn't it ironic that the government is now trying to slug the banks?

Why they ever sold OUR assets continues to baffle me. Thanks Paul!

The privatisation of the Commonwealth Bank was a financial disaster for the Australian public, although investors in the float did very well indeed. The capital structure established prior to the sale of the first tranche of shares in 1991 involved the issue of 835 million shares. Although the par value for the shares was set at $2, the relevant consideration for valuation is the issue price which was set at $5.40. This implies a valuation of $4.5 billion for the Bank as a whole, (or about $5 billion valued in 1995-96 dollars0. The procedure for the sale of the second tranche of shares in 1993 ensured that the government received an amount close to the market price of the shares at the date of sale, which turned out to be around $9.50, implying a valuation for the Bank as a whole of $7.9 billion, or about $8.5 billion in 1995-96 dollars. The final share offer for the Bank was announced in June 1996. The sale price was around $10 per share, also implying a valuation of $8.5 billion in 1995-96 dollars. The total proceeds from the three stages of the sale amounted to about $7.8 billion in 1995-96 dollars.

Average real annual profits over the period 1988-93 (which covers a complete business cycle) were around $560 million. Computing the present value of this stream of profits at a discount rate of 5 per cent yields a value of $11.2 billion for the Bank as a whole. Therefore, even if profits had not increased after 1993, the public would have incurred a loss of around $3.5 billion from the privatisation. In fact, primarily because of the removal of restrictions on the monopoly power of the banks, profits have soared. Profits for the three years from 1998 to 2000 totalled $5.4 billion, or more than half the total sale proceeds received by the Australian public.

Financial deregulation has been similarly disastrous. Since the advent of financial deregulation, banks have raised fees and charges, cut services and exploited their collective monopoly power whenever possible.

http://www.uq.edu.au/economics/johnquig ... ion01.html
Good analysis, Skids, and I broadly agree with the conclusions, though a few quibbles with the argument :

1. I do not know how much of the expanding profitability of the CBA relates to increasing efficiency and cost control in private ownership. All banks tend to bloat, but government enterprises tend to do so especially. So if it had stayed in government hands it may not have been as profitable.
2. Bank profitability in Australia since 2003 relates partly to a housing bubble driven by excess credit creation (see Prof Steve Keen on this) and profitability is probably illusory. When the chickens hit the fan, private shareholders will presumably bear a large chunk of the cost, rather than the taxpayer.
3. Ultimately, the price paid for the CBA when it was sold was set in the market, so it s hard to argue that it was "worth" more than it was sold for.



Nonetheless, I continue to be mystified by the reverence shown to Paul Keating. He presided over the sale of national assets, led us into an appalling recession, and contributed greatly to the toxic atmosphere of public life, with his lowbrow rhetoric.

On banking, yes, a new public digital bank with simple vanilla mortgage offerings and savings products, including ultra-low fee super investments, would be a good thing for a visionary government to set up. Reasonable levels of senior management remuneration and a ban on incentives and the "selling" culture would exert real pressure for the banks to clean up their stale and exploitative oligopoly.

The highlighted points...

1 - It may have.

I'd argue that, if it stayed in the publics hands, more people would have stuck with it and made the sector more competitive.


2 - Prior to 2003.

The return on private investment had already been surpassed.... WE would be way infront before then, what, almost 2 decades ago?

3 - Really? :lol: :lol:
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Post by Mugwump »

^ I think 3 was the most unarguable point of my three. Something sold in an open market has its worth established at that time. Its value may change in hindsight but you don't sell in hindsight.

On point 2, this is fine but you have to take into account the value realised by the commonwealth from the sale, and the fact that that returned value to taxpayers who earned money on it. The snslysis does not mention an assumed return to the federal govt through lowered govt debt at a time when base rates were ca 10%.

As I said, I agree with the basic proposition - it was a dumb sale, and I would reverse its consequences as I explained. But a proper NPV calculation would be needed to prove that it was undervalued, and by how much , and that is not analyses in this article. Since it was sold in a liquid market over several years, it is hard to argue that it was worth more in the market at the time of sale. Subsequent earnings growth may have suggested it would have been better to wait, but that's just hindsight and 4 out of every ten buy/sell decisions are likely to look poorish in the rear view mirror. One can be too clever by half, criticizing others on the basis of hindsight, but it is our favourite sport in this society.

I think the sale was wrong in principle, almost regardless of valuation.
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Post by watt price tully »

Pies4shaw wrote:
watt price tully wrote:
Pies4shaw wrote: Cant this all be resolved by sterilising them?
I'm sure the with clientele you work with I'd be thinking eugenics would be a good idea too.

Then again some of clientele I work with that idea has crossed my mind more than once.
I'll tell my pro-bono asylum seekers you said that.
You make the asylum seekers listen to Bono?

Try telling that to your paying customers.
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Post by watt price tully »

Mugwump wrote:^ WPT of course I made no assumption or claim to having your experience. I acknowledged your good intentions and tried to explain why I changed my mind. I also tried to indicate that the kindly consensus can and does have consequences far from its benign intentions.

I have never believed that those on the front line of an issue have an automatic right to set policy. We must strive to understand and learn from their experience, but soldiers in a war are not necessarily the best people to set foreign policy. If one looks at the way teacher unions, largely left-wing, have shaped a crumbling education system for the last sixty years, I think it's clear that shutting up and supping from their spoon is no substitute for democratic argument. Groupthink is especially strong among those who share intense experiences.

Your point about alcohol is one I understand well. As I have said, once a drug becomes so entrenched in a civilization, with such a critical mass, it is practically impossible to eradicate it, as the Us proved from 1917-1930. I would, however, impose greater restrictions on alcohol than we have today, for the reasons you indicate. The argument that "alcohol, a terrible scourge, is legal so we should make other drugs legal too" is worth examining. For about five seconds.
That's another assumption. Did I mention anywhere the argument you put re alcohol & drugs? You under-estimate alcohol (it is not merely limited to a notion of alcoholism - that is a common mistake)

I undertand what you're trying to say but in so doing you some basic errors:

1. You assume that policing has not enforced existing laws: this is an error in fact. As I noted earlier in the 70's & 80's police did and continue to arrest and charge people (individual users)

2. You make some glib generalisations about policy (or the progressives or left or whatever term is flavour of the day)being too permissive rather than actually explain or I think misunderstand the current policy & practices (see earlier references to harm minimization, harm reduction etc)

3. The obvious flaw in the lets get tough on drug approach by punishing users harshly is the questions I asked earlier that is

Who pays for:

Police?
Lawyers?
Judges?
Rehab & detox facilities?
More prisons?
More D & A workers etc?
“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman
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Post by Mugwump »

^ wpt, the last point is a fair challenge, but see my post to David above. Raise the fine for first offence possession to $2500 minimum rather than $300 average and you will presumably cover your costs or find the problem dissipates rather quickly.

My challenge back to you is that drug use has massively increased and it lies behind so much of the crime that is now widesprad (read the front page of the Age site today for a vivid picture of the ravages of crime that now affect, mostly, the poor and disadvantaged). I think that minds addled with drugs lose conscience, empathy and human feeling and make these horrible crimes far easier to commit. They are a cause of licentious behaviour and a consequence of the so-called permissive society. I cannot see how decriminalizing and taxing - i.e. making drugs available more easily - can make any society happier, more empathetic, more productive, more generous or better. The powerful connection between cannabis use and usage of harder drugs of dependence is also well-established (see the Vic sentencing guidelines paper I referenced above for proof).

If you are not proposing to allow drug usage, however, then you'll need to explain again precisely what you do propose, as it is not clear to me.
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Post by Skids »

Don't count the days, make the days count.
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Post by David »

^ We don't agree on a lot, Skids, but I'm with you 100% on this. The argument that weed is a gateway drug is highly misleading and makes the basic error of confusing correlation with causation*.

*See here for an analogous example of this kind of fallacy in action:

https://researchnews.osu.edu/archive/nitelite.htm
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Post by Mugwump »

^ Unlike in the natural sciences, absolute causation is almost impossible to prove in social sciences. In social science, we look for associated behaviors and then we must use our innate knowledge of the range of our fellow humans to judge whether a correlation has been found because of some "causal" mechanism. The night light issue is slightly different because the eye is a natural object, and thus it can be definitively proven that the night light is not causing myopia.

it is absolutely clear that dope, even when used regularly, does not always cause people to graduate to harder and more addictive drugs. On that we agree, and it is obvious. It is also quite clear that most hard drug users started by using marijuana, and that usage of dope and harder drugs is correlated. Why ? For an answer to this, we have to use our knowledge of our fellow humans. It seems to me very likely that a society which signals to the young that it is acceptable to drug your mind in pursuit of chemical pleasures, will find a certain number of people - usually those whose intellect and moral sense is limited, and/or whose background is disadvantaged already - taking this principle another step, as the high from marijuana is mild compared to cocaine, heroin, meth or whatever.

Since we are quoting sources, this is probably the most careful, dispassionate recent review of this subject from the US national academy of medicine and science (Jan 2017).

http://www8.nationalacademies.org/onpin ... rdID=24625

Alas, the "correlation is not causation" argument is a surrogate for "I do not wish to accept an unpalatable conclusion for political reasons." Strangely, when it comes to the idea that unemployment or disadvantage "causes" crime, correlation is suddenly proof positive !
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Post by Skids »

Your sentence - "most hard drug users started by using marijuana"

That's as obvious as saying "most people who walk, started by crawling"

They have to start somewhere don't they? Most dope smokers started smoking cigarettes.
And as I highlighted in a previous post, cannabis has been used for centuries, in every corner of the globe.

To me, it's all about the individuals make up. If it wasn't dope ir meth ir whatever, it would be alcohol or prescrption meds that they turned to. Some people are just wired to be fukt up, it really is that simple. Drugs don't kill people, people kill people.
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Post by Mugwump »

^ completely agree that it is about the individual's make up, Skids. People like you - steady job, good skills, conscious of the need to work hard, etc - are not the problem. It's the people who are wired to go bad, and the people who may have a predisposition to psychosis which can be triggered by dope. Those are the people being laid waste. And through them, the lady tied up with a phone cord in her own home, having her nose splattered by toerags off their heads.

The really key point, though, is that it does not have to be like this, because our own history shows that it doesn't. It really was not like this within the living memory of anyone over 60. Drugs -apart from alcohol - were rare, and crimes associated with all drugs - alcohol included - were fewer. That is evident in the crime stats, and evident on the front line of public services, which starkly show the scale of our cultural failure. It is true that we cannot go back, but we can always choose a different future. The trouble is that change is painful and difficult. On drugs, as alcohol shows, it is nearly impossible once drugs become normalized.
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