Incident in Manchester UK

[Skids]

This for me....

https://youtu.be/v4vWR5BpDdQ

[stui magpie]

The question for me is why second-generation British/French/whoever citizens do this. Apart from the obvious anger and aggression (and it's particular cultural manifestation), one can really only wonder how people become so thoroughly alienated from their own society that this strikes them as a tolerable option.

Bloody good question.

Did the parents ever really fit in? We're they raised that way? But still, they are potentially blowing up their neighbours.

I heard or read or both that the parents went to the UK as refugees, but returned home a few years ago.

The alleged suicide bomber stayed in the UK, went to Uni and dropped out, went to a local mosque known to police with a reputation for radicalism, visited the parents in libya ( I think) and underwent some training to be a terrorist while there. This all from mainstream media.

That short synopsis contains a lot of things to consider.

[Skids]

The question for me is why second-generation British/French/whoever citizens do this. Apart from the obvious anger and aggression (and it's particular cultural manifestation), one can really only wonder how people become so thoroughly alienated from their own society that this strikes them as a tolerable option.

Bloody good question.

Did the parents ever really fit in? We're they raised that way? But still, they are potentially blowing up their neighbours.

This reminds me of when I was employed doing plumbing maintenance on State Housing commission properties. It must have been 20-25 years ago, I went to a house in Nollamarra, they had one of those giant satelitte dishes in the backyard, you know the ones, big black mesh type, about 3-4m in diameter.

A woman in a burqua answered the door, her 2 young sons were watching a show on tv, arabic music, 2 women dancing and military dressed blokes jumpinh around wielding AK-47's..... now there's education for you.

This was over 2 decades ago, in Perth! I wonder where those 2 fine young men, in their mid 20's are today?

[Mugwump]

This for me....

https://youtu.be/v4vWR5BpDdQ

A much, much better alternative, Skids, is this :

https://youtu.be/x6mcxFYQRdg

[Mugwump]

The question for me is why second-generation British/French/whoever citizens do this. Apart from the obvious anger and aggression (and it's particular cultural manifestation), one can really only wonder how people become so thoroughly alienated from their own society that this strikes them as a tolerable option.

Bloody good question.

Did the parents ever really fit in? We're they raised that way? But still, they are potentially blowing up their neighbours.

I heard or read or both that the parents went to the UK as refugees, but returned home a few years ago.

The alleged suicide bomber stayed in the UK, went to Uni and dropped out, went to a local mosque known to police with a reputation for radicalism, visited the parents in libya ( I think) and underwent some training to be a terrorist while there. This all from mainstream media.

That short synopsis contains a lot of things to consider.

Yes, there are patterns in these attacks which might form a basis for workable policies if we cared enough.

[Skids]

This for me....

https://youtu.be/v4vWR5BpDdQ

A much, much better alternative, Skids, is this :

https://youtu.be/x6mcxFYQRdg

Yes.

[David]

https://i.redditmedia.com/4JBVSXp7-pa6F ... ddabea.jpg

Indeed, Wokko. Until Muslims as a whole organise to root out this evil, and own it as their problem, it will continue.

The trouble is that many are already doing this, and while it's undoubtedly helping there's no easy answer. What can a Shia Muslim tell a radicalised Sunni? What can a non-radicalised Sunni, for that matter, tell an ISIS convert?

Many dedicated people in Muslim communities are trying nonetheless, but what you just said was the equivalent of something like "if only men as a whole get together to stop domestic violence, it will keep happening". It's a fantasy.

[David]

The question for me is why second-generation British/French/whoever citizens do this. Apart from the obvious anger and aggression (and it's particular cultural manifestation), one can really only wonder how people become so thoroughly alienated from their own society that this strikes them as a tolerable option.

Bloody good question.

Did the parents ever really fit in? We're they raised that way? But still, they are potentially blowing up their neighbours.

Ah, yes, it's not their fault, it's ours. We have caused them to be "alienated", poor dears. If we gave them a free education, help to go to university, free health care, protection for minorities under the law, none of this would happen. Oh, wait.....

In any society, there will be a certain number of weak-minded losers and hyper-egotists who feed on ideological garbage to breed resentment and hatred. These will look for channels through which to stream their discontents. Some channels will magnify those discontents into homicidal hatreds, and that is what some parts of Islam are doing now.

We should stop making excuses for these monsters, recognise that this thing has many of the same kind of impulses as Nazism once had (with active practitioners and a whole host of sympathisers), and start taking some courageous steps to block its admission and practice in our society.

A good first start would be :

1. The viewing or distribution of pro-Islamist materials will be treated with the same severity as viewing child pornography is today. No excuses, you view, you lose.
2. Anyone traveling to certain countries (Syria, Libya, Algeria, Iraq at al) will need an official permit and an official reason to do so, or s/he will be blocked from re-entry to the U.K. These will be meted out sparingly, with authority to grant them limited to the government and reputatable, certified businesses.
3. Anyone arrested for Islamist activity should undergo the modern equivalent of the de-Nazification programmes used successfully after the Second World War. This means intensive "re-education".

Ah yes, Guantanamo was a great de-radicalisation exercise, wasn't it?

I know it's tempting to reach for the authoritarian stick here, but the scary thing is that it often doesn't work and quite often makes things much worse. Won't stop right-wing governments from imposing them, because even if they know it doesn't work, they also know what wins votes.

[Mugwump]

^ you're not usually Light-fingered in argument, David, but that post was not really fair dealing. Nowhere did I suggest an extra-judicial process such as Guantanamo Bay.

Secondly, if you think that "authoritarian" measures (such a loaded and pejorative word for laws passed by parliament to try and prevent murder !) are likely to cause more of this problem, I'd suggest instead that your "multiculturalism and diversity" faith isn't really in a position to preach on it, based on the evidence of the last 24 months.

[Mugwump]

https://i.redditmedia.com/4JBVSXp7-pa6F ... ddabea.jpg

Indeed, Wokko. Until Muslims as a whole organise to root out this evil, and own it as their problem, it will continue.

The trouble is that many are already doing this, and while it's undoubtedly helping there's no easy answer. What can a Shia Muslim tell a radicalised Sunni? What can a non-radicalised Sunni, for that matter, tell an ISIS convert?

Many dedicated people in Muslim communities are trying nonetheless, but what you just said was the equivalent of something like "if only men as a whole get together to stop domestic violence, it will keep happening". It's a fantasy.

Many do. Many don't. Read the 2016 ICM poll into British Muslim attitudes, reported in the Guardian et al. Inter alia :

- 4% of Muslims sympathise with suicide bombers. That is 112,000 based on the 2.8 million Muslims (and it is a fair bet that a lot who sympathise were not prepared to say so).
- More than half think homosexuality should be illegal in Britain.
- Two thirds would not report someone getting involved in terrorism via Syria.

Muslims are mostly decent people, pursuing the logic of their sincerely and deeply-held beliefs. Unfortunately, the consequence of this is that too many aspire to things that are deeply inimical to our culture and values, and a small proportion are ruthlessly homicidal and or sympathise with homicide. They are entitled to their views, but it is not a reason to wish for many Muslims in our society.

Before the Iraq War a million people marched under a banner saying "not in my name". I see nothing even remotely comparable from the Islamic community, despite the mutilations and maiming and murders being committed in their name. Instead, from most of the Muslim organizations in Britain, one sees and hears equivocation, criticism of Western policies, and cries of Islamophobia.

The domestic violence analogy is very misleading in several respects. Masculinity is not a chosen faith, nor an ideology. One cannot choose not to be male, because of what other men do. There is also a difference between setting off explosives among people you do not know, and committing acts of violence inside a relationship. There is also no Quran of masculinity which licenses such acts.

[Pi]

[watt price tully]

The question for me is why second-generation British/French/whoever citizens do this. Apart from the obvious anger and aggression (and it's particular cultural manifestation), one can really only wonder how people become so thoroughly alienated from their own society that this strikes them as a tolerable option.

Bloody good question.

Did the parents ever really fit in? We're they raised that way? But still, they are potentially blowing up their neighbours.

I heard or read or both that the parents went to the UK as refugees, but returned home a few years ago.

The alleged suicide bomber stayed in the UK, went to Uni and dropped out, went to a local mosque known to police with a reputation for radicalism, visited the parents in libya ( I think) and underwent some training to be a terrorist while there. This all from mainstream media.

That short synopsis contains a lot of things to consider.

Family members arrested in Libya.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/05 ... anchester/

[Wokko]

I understand the impulse, but objectively, in the last 100 years the body count from utopian political movements would be far higher than from religion. It was not religion which murdered 6 million Jews, wilfully starved 7 million Ukrainian peasants, created the Cultural revolution in China. Even the First World War was a matter of politics, not religion. It is not Hinduism, Buddhism or Christianity that is presently an engine of regular mass murder. It is Islam.

Even Communism will take a long time to catch the 270 Million deaths caused by Islam.

https://www.politicalislam.com/tears-of-jihad/

[watt price tully]

https://i.redditmedia.com/4JBVSXp7-pa6F ... ddabea.jpg

What a stupid table to show that Muslims are more likely to kill / murder people through acts of terror:

Just one example:

Misogyny an ideology?

Developed by yet another inadequate maladjusted male was it ?

Wiki definition:

"Misogyny (/mɪˈsɒdʒɪni/) is the hatred of, contempt for, or prejudice against women or girls. Misogyny can be manifested in numerous ways, including social exclusion, sex discrimination, hostility, androcentrism, patriarchy, male privilege, belittling of women, violence against women, and sexual objectification.[1][2] Misogyny can occasionally be found within sacred texts of religions and mythologies, and various influential Western philosophers and thinkers have been described as misogynistic"

[watt price tully]

This for me....

https://youtu.be/v4vWR5BpDdQ

A much, much better alternative, Skids, is this :

https://youtu.be/x6mcxFYQRdg

Now we're talkin'