More states legalize Pot 8) when for Oz?

[Skids]

^ good for you, mate, and I hope you enjoy it. In answer to your question, however, yes it does. The law has been enacted by parliament, and you are choosing to break it. But given the fact that it is not enforced with any rigour, I can well understand your lack of concern for it. When the government won't police its laws effectively, they bring the law into disrepute.

Cheers Mugwump.

I wonder if I had never partaken in the evil weed (I've been a smoker, of varying degrees for over 35 yesrs) whether I would; a) have been something other than a plumber and/or b) able to convey my opinions, like you, in a more structured way?

Most of my school reports expressed that I wasted my ability.... I guess we'll never know.

And no, I'm not being facetious.

Something for me to ponder further as I exhale tonight

[Mugwump]

^ we all have different things to bring, mate. I can barely change a light bulb, and I'd be useless at doing what you do.

[Skids]

I want to put another take on the legalization of weed. I believe it would actually reduce the number of people getting on harder drugs, especially the current killer meth.
What?! I hear you say. Well, what happens now, more people are making and/or dealing in meth than those who are growing and/or dealing in dope.

The main reason for this is profitability and, the quick turnaround when meth is made. It takes months to ; grow, dry and cure pot... for a minimal return compared with the quick mix and sale of meth.

Last night when I got home I found only just enough weed for a single spliff. Rang an old mate who usually has some weed. No dice, but if you want some meth..... everybody's got meth

Obviously not my scene, but wind the clock back 25 years, you're off for a night out and hey, if that's all you can get...

Legalize weed, regulate it and I guarantee, the meth problem of today would be a lot more controllable and way less prevalent.

[David]

[David]

Finally, on the question of liberalizing things that damage some weak and vulnerable people, I am not a libertarian. I apply the seat belt principle. If the costs are dreadful and the benefits frivolous, then there is no harm in laws protecting people from themselves, if it can be enforced.

I wonder if we tend to underestimate the social and personal benefits of intoxicants. For all alcohol's serious harms, is there not something liberating about having access to a substance that relaxes you, reduces your inhibitions and allows you to have fun with other people more easily?

People often live hard, tedious, depressing lives in our society, and alcohol and other drugs can provide a temporary escape from that. Perhaps that social malaise could be solved by reducing the work week, promoting artistic expression, building communities or liberalising society in other ways, but given the way we currently live it's possible that we actually need access to intoxicants. That demand doesn't come from nowhere, after all.

[stui magpie]

^

I'll drink to that.

[Mugwump]

Finally, on the question of liberalizing things that damage some weak and vulnerable people, I am not a libertarian. I apply the seat belt principle. If the costs are dreadful and the benefits frivolous, then there is no harm in laws protecting people from themselves, if it can be enforced.

I wonder if we tend to underestimate the social and personal benefits of intoxicants. For all alcohol's serious harms, is there not something liberating about having access to a substance that relaxes you, reduces your inhibitions and allows you to have fun with other people more easily?

People often live hard, tedious, depressing lives in our society, and alcohol and other drugs can provide a temporary escape from that. Perhaps that social malaise could be solved by reducing the work week, promoting artistic expression, building communities or liberalising society in other ways, but given the way we currently live it's possible that we actually need access to intoxicants. That demand doesn't come from nowhere, after all.

I understand that, but I don't think it's true. In truth, the vast, vast majority of our society lives in ways that are unimaginably rich, compared to any period in history. Free education to age 18, universal and hi-tech health care, safe food and water, incredible access to information and learning, good public infrastructure, great sanitation, military security. Drug taking - including hard and very dangerous drugs - has escalated massively as these things have been achieved. It's a problem of anomie, and a society that wants to break the link between pleasure and effort, not constraint or life's oppression.

The trouble is that progress - real progress - lies in that link between pleasure and effort. We build and nurture things so that we may enjoy them. Supplant the building with cheap, passive stimulants and you take away the real sweetness and power of life.

I do not deny that drug-taking has pleasures, and I enjoy a drink as much as anyone (though I hate drunkenness). However, I think any pleasure which is fleeting and unreal but has immense social and personal costs is unjustifiable.

[Mugwump]

I want to put another take on the legalization of weed. I believe it would actually reduce the number of people getting on harder drugs, especially the current killer meth.
What?! I hear you say. Well, what happens now, more people are making and/or dealing in meth than those who are growing and/or dealing in dope.

The main reason for this is profitability and, the quick turnaround when meth is made. It takes months to ; grow, dry and cure pot... for a minimal return compared with the quick mix and sale of meth.

Last night when I got home I found only just enough weed for a single spliff. Rang an old mate who usually has some weed. No dice, but if you want some meth..... everybody's got meth

Obviously not my scene, but wind the clock back 25 years, you're off for a night out and hey, if that's all you can get...

Legalize weed, regulate it and I guarantee, the meth problem of today would be a lot more controllable and way less prevalent.

On your last point I truly doubt it, and the scenarios you described would equally make the case that all drugs are related and cannabis is a pathway to meth. Once you accept that it's ok to take something purely to get off your face, it's just a consumer choice.

If we had held the line on drugs at the cannabis garden gate, we would not now have meth in the living room. On another note, if you know someone dealing in this filthy, murderous and hope-destroying product (i.e. Meth), you really should report it. It's more than a "scene" - it's a pit of hell awaiting the weak and unwary and those who come into contact with them.

[stui magpie]

Finally, on the question of liberalizing things that damage some weak and vulnerable people, I am not a libertarian. I apply the seat belt principle. If the costs are dreadful and the benefits frivolous, then there is no harm in laws protecting people from themselves, if it can be enforced.

I wonder if we tend to underestimate the social and personal benefits of intoxicants. For all alcohol's serious harms, is there not something liberating about having access to a substance that relaxes you, reduces your inhibitions and allows you to have fun with other people more easily?

People often live hard, tedious, depressing lives in our society, and alcohol and other drugs can provide a temporary escape from that. Perhaps that social malaise could be solved by reducing the work week, promoting artistic expression, building communities or liberalising society in other ways, but given the way we currently live it's possible that we actually need access to intoxicants. That demand doesn't come from nowhere, after all.

I understand that, but I don't think it's true. In truth, the vast, vast majority of our society lives in ways that are unimaginably rich, compared to any period in history. Free education to age 18, universal and hi-tech health care, safe food and water, incredible access to information and learning, good public infrastructure, great sanitation, military security. Drug taking - including hard and very dangerous drugs - has escalated massively as these things have been achieved. It's a problem of anomie, and a society that wants to break the link between pleasure and effort, not constraint or life's oppression.

The trouble is that progress - real progress - lies in that link between pleasure and effort. We build and nurture things so that we may enjoy them. Supplant the building with cheap, passive stimulants and you take away the real sweetness and power of life.

I do not deny that drug-taking has pleasures, and I enjoy a drink as much as anyone (though I hate drunkenness). However, I think any pleasure which is fleeting and unreal but has immense social and personal costs is unjustifiable.

Point taken, but to emphasis David's point you just have to look at civilisation and society over the millennia. Every where you look, people have found ways to get off their skull.

Alcohol has been in almost every society in recorded history.

If you can't get booze, you make do with Kava, Betel nut, Coca leaves, anything people can stick in their mouths that gives them a buzz.

The Zulus had Beer, the ancient Greeks, romans and egyptians had wine. The pressures of modern society be damned, humans are historically wired to seek out ways to get a buzz.

[Mugwump]

^ for sure, but I think that's a different point to the one David was making.

On your point, humans are also wired for fighting, and they have done so throughout history- but as a society we curb that everywhere because it inhibits real progress and makes our society weaker. We do all kinds of things to shut the lizard brain out of society.

The bit about David's post with which I most disagree has nothing to do with drugs, actually. I just wish we would think less like spoilt children about what we do not have, and spend more time rejoicing in what we do have - things that were bought and defended by prior generations who sacrificed, learnt and struggled more than our childish selves understand. David does not act like this in his personal life, where he is genuinely self-sacrificing and good - but I think his social views reflect the entitlement mindset which is at the root of the drug problem and much else. To cry "woe is us" in a time such as this seems to me very historically unaware.

[stui magpie]

^

Again good points well made.

History says using mind altering substances wasn't just the province of the wealthy but the everyman. Quality according to their station.

Most of them didn't have the luxury of the kind of society we have. The Zulus drinking their Millet beer, the Fijians doing Kava etc weren't exactly at the height of things.

We're all products of our experiences. David grew up right wing and changed. I grew up left wing and changed.

Am I talking shit? I've nearly finished the second bottle of cab shiraz.

[HAL]

It sounds like you're talking.

[Mugwump]

^

Again good points well made.

History says using mind altering substances wasn't just the province of the wealthy but the everyman. Quality according to their station.

Most of them didn't have the luxury of the kind of society we have. The Zulus drinking their Millet beer, the Fijians doing Kava etc weren't exactly at the height of things.

We're all products of our experiences. David grew up right wing and changed. I grew up left wing and changed.

Am I talking shit? I've nearly finished the second bottle of cab shiraz.

If you've knocked off two bottle of cab Shiraz alone, I'd say that's exceptionally coherent under the circumstances !

[Skids]

I don't know the people dealing the meth Mugwump, a former workmate 20 years my juniour does.

[Skids]

I want to put another take on the legalization of weed. I believe it would actually reduce the number of people getting on harder drugs, especially the current killer meth.
What?! I hear you say. Well, what happens now, more people are making and/or dealing in meth than those who are growing and/or dealing in dope.

The main reason for this is profitability and, the quick turnaround when meth is made. It takes months to ; grow, dry and cure pot... for a minimal return compared with the quick mix and sale of meth.

Last night when I got home I found only just enough weed for a single spliff. Rang an old mate who usually has some weed. No dice, but if you want some meth..... everybody's got meth

Obviously not my scene, but wind the clock back 25 years, you're off for a night out and hey, if that's all you can get...

Legalize weed, regulate it and I guarantee, the meth problem of today would be a lot more controllable and way less prevalent.

On your last point I truly doubt it, and the scenarios you described would equally make the case that all drugs are related and cannabis is a pathway to meth. Once you accept that it's ok to take something purely to get off your face, it's just a consumer choice.

If we had held the line on drugs at the cannabis garden gate, we would not now have meth in the living room. On another note, if you know someone dealing in this filthy, murderous and hope-destroying product (i.e. Meth), you really should report it. It's more than a "scene" - it's a pit of hell awaiting the weak and unwary and those who come into contact with them.

I think your absence from ever being in the drug scene clouds your views mugwump.

When I first smoked weed, at almost 16, 30 odd years ago.
Weed, speed, trips and heroin were the only drugs around. No meth or pills, maybe there was coke but I guess it was always the rich crowds drug.
We all surfed and had jobs, a few of us apprentices in different trades and the rest in various other jobs. Every Friday after work we'd chip in a few bucks each, buy a box of beer & a foil ($25) of weed. A few drinks while we passed a joint around and planned our surfing destinations for tge weekend. There was never the thought of any other drugs, just where our next wave or party was going to be.

My point here is, now, there are more drugs, more choices readily available to young people. If they roll up at a dealers place to get some weed and hey, "I'm all out of weed but there's bickys or meth" .... what do you thinks going to happen?

If pot was legal, these kids wouldn't end up at the mercy of scum.bag, who's only intention is profit.