George Pell has been charged

[think positive]

^ actually what victims want is an abstract consideration, but a minor one. The point of justice is due punishment of responsible individuals as a mark of the boundaries of right. If criminals are to be punished in accordance with the desires of individuals, then the criminal gets pot luck depending on who he assaulted.

It would also open things up to coercement. Victims could be threatened into saying they forgive the person and let them go free.

On the other extreme, some crackpot could demand the death penalty for someone who ran over their cat.

Best that punishment not be in the hands of the victims.

The cat ones a little harsh

If it were a dog however.....

[David]

^ actually what victims want is an abstract consideration, but a minor one. The point of justice is due punishment of responsible individuals as a mark of the boundaries of right. If criminals are to be punished in accordance with the desires of individuals, then the criminal gets pot luck depending on who he assaulted.

But this is still wedded to the framing of criminal justice as punitive, i.e. some getting off lightly and some getting punished too harshly. If we see most forms of restorative justice as being inherently rehabilitative, then the benefits are already there regardless of extent of 'punishment'; the key factor is that the criminal has made amends to the victim in some meaningful way.

Such sentences could of course still be overseen by the courts so that it's not left purely to the victim's discretion and that what is asked is neither too lenient nor too onerous. As an alternative to the more abstract idea of community service, this seems like a more potentially useful approach.

[KenH]

I really don't know what the answer is, or what needs to done to right what was wrong. In some cases it is too late as " the fiddler" is dead and gone and no-one knows about the crimes other than the victims and none of the victims know how many there were! Most victims never tell anyone and try to live their lives the best they can! Most don't heal though!

[stui magpie]

I really don't know what the answer is, or what needs to done to right what was wrong. In some cases it is too late as " the fiddler" is dead and gone and no-one knows about the crimes other than the victims and none of the victims know how many there were! Most victims never tell anyone and try to live their lives the best they can! Most don't heal though!

Cut flesh it will heal by itself, in time. If the wound is big enough, you may have scar tissue to remind you and or it may never be quite the same.

Psychological injuries don't just heal with time.

[watt price tully]

[think positive]

multiculturalism!!

[David]

[Member 7167]

It is certainly an interesting case from many perspectives and if Pell is guilty I hope he is successfully prosecuted.

If not I still think that people like Pell have a lot to answer for. They were the ones ultimately responsible for the actions of those who reported to them either directly or indirectly within the structure and the Catholic church in the past had a very strong structure. In many cases, even if they were not a party to the adverse activities they either ignored it, put the needs and reputation of the church ahead of the most vulnerable and through their actions moved the perpetrators onto virgin pastures where their crimes and acts were repeated.

I went though the Catholic school system in NSW during the 60's and early 70's. The last 4 years were at a boarding school outside of Sydney.

Fortunately I never witnessed any sexual exploitation but what I did witness and endure was a great deal of manipulation and physical violence. You would be caned or hit for little to no reason. If certain individuals were in a bad mood then everyone was fair game. I witnessed a complete dormitory and a complete class of boys caned for minor infractions or simply because we did not know the answer to a maths question. I can remember being forced to shower under extremely hot water by one individual and if you refused to enter the shower you were caned across the back until you entered. This was an old part of the school that had about 12 shower booths but one central point were the hot and cold water was mixed. These events were common place. Some individuals who were favoured received a lot of benefits whist other received noting but put downs.

Even in the day schools in those days the Brothers had few limitations. I can remember one F%^%$ who would have you touch your toes and strap you repeated behind the knees until the back of the knees were so swollen you could hardly walk. He had a special strap made by the local boot repairer so that he could impose the most pain with each application. Yes, these supposed men of god were cruel and they repeatably did cruel acts. In my opinion they have a great deal to answer for.

I am still in contact with many mates from my boarding school days. Many were scarred in one way or another. Some recovered overtime whilst for others it has affected their whole lives. For some it affected their ability to trust and maintain relationships which is an essential components to having long term quality relationships. This is the case with my best friend from those days. I have been very fortunate as my wife of 38 years helped me greatly in learning to trust and overcome this aspect of my past.

The Catholic church is on its knees due to the exposure of their conduct in respect to sexual abuse. If their other abuses were fully exposed there would be little left of the Catholic church in Australia. In my opinion they need to answer for their crimes.

P.S. Over time I have recognised the limitations of these individuals and their abuse of responsibility and influence and have become a better person as a result. Most of us (not all) have the ability to learn, grow and evolve.

[Mugwump]

^ I tend to agree with this but it varies. I went to a college run by Carmelite priests in the seventies and it was no worse than I saw at the state primary I attended. Some of it was just the times. It was acceptable for teachers to bully and physically beat children. Sexual abuse was a different thing, and in the CC it seems to have been a worldwide phenomenon emanating largely from the Irish-heritage church, which reflected Ireland's own puritanism and harshness. The Italian-rooted parts of the church seem to have been largely free of it. In any event, those who participated in it or connived at it deserve every condemnation. However, the truth regarding Cardinal Pell is now a matter for the courts.

[stui magpie]

^

Phuck

I went to a bush public primary and high school and there was zero abuse, physical or mental.

The headmaster used the cane on people in primary school, but reluctantly. he certainly didn't get off on it.

There was one sadistic little dwarf at the high school, deputy principal, who used to wander the grounds with his cane looking for trouble, but even though 4 over the fingertips (especially on a cold morning) stung like buggery, it was hardly abusive.

[partypie]

Members account echoes what my brother told me about the Christian brothers college he attended in the 60s. He ended up with PTSD and dying prematurely, partly due to poor mental health. He certainly experienced physical abuse but denied being sexually abused there.

He told me about the time he and his mate had Saturday detention. They had to plant trees. The brother told them to dig a hole and take the sapling out of the pot and plant it. This they did for a few hours and when the brother came back he demanded to know why they had planted the trees upside down. Sorry sir, you never told us which way they were supposed to go.

[stui magpie]

^

geezus, that's sad but almost funny as well. Little act of defiance.

i bet they paid for that.

[David]

What Member describes seems like a good reminder of the root problem here: not Catholicism or even paedophiles per se, but institutions that allow absolute power to be wielded over the vulnerable. It basically reiterates what the Stanford prison experiment told us about human nature and authority: absolute power corrupts absolutely.

[think positive]

Hence why trump is now president, the little people finally got a chance for something different. Hopefully the biggest wake up call to politicians everywhere. I agree totally, and privatisation probably makes it worse. But that could be coloured by Orange is the New Black!

How do you stop greed? The competition to have the most power? How do we get the world, or even one country into a new way of thinking. And how the hell was that kind of control, that kind of evil achievable in the first place? 1 man doesn't do that, the scope of it is mind boggling.

Sorry binge watching the first 10 episodes of The hasn't made me very hopeful we can fix this even after the Armageddon!

It's very depressing. If he is found guilty, what do you think will change? Will the flock thin? And will they give up on religion or go elsewhere? It's such a massive massive abuse of power. Of trust. How far up does it go, or even how far up does the cover up go? This isn't one man on trial, it's a big part of the organisation. And if even part of its true, then it's a good thing it's finally got a chance to come out.

[stui magpie]

^

Binge watching episodes of what? The Shit? What's that little brown thing?