What a hypocritical Country!

[HAL]

What does seem to be true in much of Europe ?

[David]

^ do we know that ? It does not seem to be true in much of Europe. And why do so many come without passports and travel past so many other countries to get here ?

We certainly know that many of the people who've flooded out of Syria are literally fleeing for their lives (that they then choose to cross the Mediterranean rather than spending the next decade in a camp in Lebanon or living in poverty in Turkey is another matter). More locally, many Afghanis and Sri Lankans are fleeing political persecution. That the majority of the people in our camps are legitimate refugees has already been established by agencies tasked with monitoring these matters, though, so we don't need to argue that point. Before we derail the thread too much, my point to Skids is that you can't logically use the plight of refugees as a means to demonise a government you don't like and simultaneously demonise the same kind of refugees who get locked up here. If a group of West Papuans took a boat to Australia tomorrow in order to claim asylum, they would, needless to say, face exactly the same fate. How far do your sympathies extend?

[Mugwump]

^ fair enough, though I have deep doubts about the whole system - but let's not derail the thread.

[Skids]

What a *&^*(&%$% disgrace!

Australia to provide funding to help Indonesia boost tourism, create 10 new Balis

Australia's ambassador to Indonesia has emphasised the Federal Government's commitment to try and help boost tourism in Indonesia.

On Monday, Paul Grigson said Australia would be providing funding through the World Bank to help create 10 new Balis.

That commitment reportedly dominated discussions with Indonesia's Maritime Affairs Minister, Luhut Pandjaitan, in Jakarta on Monday afternoon.

http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2017-07-1 ... fmredir=sm

[David]

[Pa Marmo]

And why do so many come without passports and travel past so many other countries to get here ?

Can we all say WELFARE?

[David]

No. One might cross a dangerous sea for a generalised idea of a safer, wealthier life, but I doubt anyone comes specifically for the kewl Centrelink benefits. Why insist on thinking the worst of people?

[stui magpie]

No. One might cross a dangerous sea for a generalised idea of a safer, wealthier life, but I doubt anyone comes specifically for the kewl Centrelink benefits. Why insist on thinking the worst of people?

Starry eyed viewpoint there I'm afraid.

Welfare is definitely a pull factor.

[David]

What is your evidence for that assertion?

[stui magpie]

Various articles I've read, the correlation between those European countries that were "destination" countries for refugees vs those that weren't.

I'm not suggesting it's the only reason but it is definitely a pull factor when you look at the countries refugees bypass to try to get into one that has welfare

[David]

If so, I suspect the strong correlation between welfare and standard of living accounts for a good deal of that. I doubt many asylum seekers are actually intending to stay unemployed for a long period of time.

Seems really prejudicial and lacking in empathy to assign this as a motivation when just the chance to live in a stable, non-violent society is so out of reach for so many people in the world, and when the push factors of civil war and severe poverty are so obvious. It seems to come from a place of presuming that asylum seekers are, by and large, ne'er-do-wells, which I suppose is one reason why the government's lock-'em-up-and-throw-away-the-key policy has proven so popular.

[stui magpie]

prejudicial my arse. lacking empathy I'll take but the term I prefer is pragmatic.

Of course there's a strong correlation between living standards and welfare, your standard of living is better in a place with welfare than a place without when you can't/won't get employment.

[Mugwump]

Crossing many other countries for a generalised desire for a wealthier life is a perfectly respectable ambition, but it makes you an economic migrant, not an asylum seeker. I think the passports vanish because it makes asylum claims easier and so the people smugglers recommend it to their clients. I think we have done a real disservice to genuine asylum claimants through this elision between asylum and illegal migration, and the question of empathy is thus more complex than it seems at face value. As so often, the desire to do good can lead to worse consequences if it proceeds from a false premise.

[David]

prejudicial my arse. lacking empathy I'll take but the term I prefer is pragmatic.

There's nothing pragmatic about misjudging people's intentions. Of course there may be some who cross borders with no other intention than to find the spot with the best welfare cheques so they can live in luxury off the taxpayer. I find it unlikely, but, you know, it takes all kinds. What I can't abide by is the suggestion that most or all asylum seekers are motivated by this. It shows an enormous lack of ability to imagine yourself in other people's shoes, and a strong vein of prejudice. Pa Marmo's post says it all: to him, these people are greedy, lazy and selfish, and here to take what's ours. It's a caricature, pure and simple.

Presuming malign intent in people we don't know (and scarcely know anything about) is cynical and ungracious. Presuming malign intent in a universalised mass of foreigners, on the other hand, is just racism. The textbook definition thereof, really.

[think positive]

Fair enough, but what about once they get here? Friends working in the education system, Centrelink and dept of human services all tell the same stories of lack of understanding of our laws, etc. and resources stretched to the limit. how many is too many? Too many to educate, feed, and yes, control.

For what it's worth I agree to a point, not too many would risk a leaky boat if they didnt have to, but some do. I would think there is a lot more of it in and around Europe because it's a lot easier and cheaper to travel around there.

I also get your point about economic refugees looking for a better life, hell thats why those of us without chain marks are here, but do it the right way. Surely we should get all the homeless and struggling Aussie citizens right first before that's a consideration?

I reckon it's No different from the welfare system problems here - cheats make it hard for the genuine cases.