State violence in Catalonia

[David]

[HAL]

Oops. Too much data.

[think positive]

[sixpoints]

Since this is a footy site, I thought I'd add the football perspective to what's currently happening in Catalunya.
Everyone would know that FC Barcelona (Barca) is one of the biggest & most successful soccer teams on Earth. They very much represent a point of difference with the rest of Spain for their Catalunyan support. Games especially against Real Madrid are Castille v Catalunya.
Barca felt there was a conspiracy from the Madrid based La Liga. They had scheduled a home match for Barca on the day of the Independence Referendum. Barca pleaded with the league to change the date citing the unrest could spill into the stadium. A Barca supporter group warned the league they would try a pitch invasion to promote Catalunya Independence.
The league wouldn't budge and told Barca to play or be fined massively and be deducted 6 points. Naturally the Barca fans were furious and responded in kind with vitriol for the Madrid based league.
The usual 90,000 turned up for the game. The Barca players came out in the uniform of Catalunya for their warm up before the gates were opened. Then it was discovered their opponents Las Palmas from the Canary Islands were given permission by the league to sew a small Spanish flag onto their uniform.
Barca asked the league again for a postponement but were told no, so they decided with 30 minutes to go that the game will go ahead, but that the crowd would not be allowed in, as the volatility of 90,000 would be impossible to manage.
So Barca played Las Palmas in a stadium of 90,00 in front of a crowd of 0. Lionel Messi got 2 and Barca won 3-0.
Don't discount the effect of the intransigence by the league in further empassioning the Catalunyans. Soccer is life there and the shambles made of this match is being used extensively as propaganda.

[Mugwump]

I don't know how widespread the police brutality was. The media does not do context well, and facts without context are often misleading.

I have some sympathy with the Spanish authorities. Britain held a referendum on Scottish independence a few years ago, via an agreed, managed democratic process. The central government and the Scots Nats negotiated and agreed the terms, and the result was respected by all. I'm not a Scottish nationalist, but credit to their party for its proper democratic conduct.

This appears to be a unilateral act of sedition orchestrated by a provincial government which returned over 90% in favour of secession - the kind of figures which suggest illegitimacy in any fair electoral process. If a referendum is conducted illegally under the terms of the Spanish constitution, the government has the responsibility of enforcing the law. When nationalist passions are running high, some acts of brutality toward the police, and from the police, are probably inevitable. I'd suggest the Catalan nationalists bear a very substantial part of the blame.

Spain may ultimately have to face up to its Scottish problem via a well-managed referendum, and I can understand the Catalan nationalists' frustration and provocations, but the way to achieve it is through patience, engagement and diplomacy rather than schismatic convulsion.

[David]

What would it take for that to happen? Spain seems to have no intention of letting Catalonia go and at present isn't even prepared to throw it a bone with more autonomy. You use the UK and Scotland as an example of how to achieve independence, but ultimately that is an extremely unusual case of a benign state allowing one of its regions to decide its own future. The global reality is very different.

You can question the media narrative, but the police weren't responding to a riot or violent behaviour; they were tasked with disrupting a peaceful electoral process (an 'illegal' one, though I trust we all know how arbitrary such things are in the context of sovereignty) and seizing ballot boxes, and the riot gear suggests that they weren't waiting around for people to get out of their way. 400-odd civilians injured vs 12 police are the figures I've read. Sometimes, if it looks and smells like police brutality, it's police brutality.

[HAL]

Say no to the UK and Scotland as an example of how to achieve independence but that is an unusual case of a benign state allowing one of its regions to decide its own future.

[Mugwump]

What would it take for that to happen? Spain seems to have no intention of letting Catalonia go and at present isn't even prepared to throw it a bone with more autonomy. You use the UK and Scotland as an example of how to achieve independence, but ultimately that is an extremely unusual case of a benign state allowing one of its regions to decide its own future. The global reality is very different.

You can question the media narrative, but the police weren't responding to a riot or violent behaviour; they were tasked with disrupting a peaceful electoral process (an 'illegal' one, though I trust we all know how arbitrary such things are in the context of sovereignty) and seizing ballot boxes, and the riot gear suggests that they weren't waiting around for people to get out of their way. 400-odd civilians injured vs 12 police are the figures I've read. Sometimes, if it looks and smells like police brutality, it's police brutality.

1. Constitutional legality is not "arbitrary". That's why we have constitutions.
2. The police have riot gear. The fact that 12 were injured despite that tells you there was plenty of two-way commerce, which one would expect. I'd also like to see the definitions and corroborating evidence for injury, given politically-motivated parties are involved. It may be police brutality - or it may be law enforcement under heat and pressure.
3. I don't know what it would take - presumably lots of discussion and a large majority vote for a party that wants it as a core part of its manifesto. But unilateral secession in this way seems pretty student-politicky to me. And there are few countries where such an action would be permitted with indifference by the sovereign authority.

[Pies4shaw]

What would it take for that to happen? Spain seems to have no intention of letting Catalonia go and at present isn't even prepared to throw it a bone with more autonomy. You use the UK and Scotland as an example of how to achieve independence, but ultimately that is an extremely unusual case of a benign state allowing one of its regions to decide its own future. The global reality is very different.

You can question the media narrative, but the police weren't responding to a riot or violent behaviour; they were tasked with disrupting a peaceful electoral process (an 'illegal' one, though I trust we all know how arbitrary such things are in the context of sovereignty) and seizing ballot boxes, and the riot gear suggests that they weren't waiting around for people to get out of their way. 400-odd civilians injured vs 12 police are the figures I've read. Sometimes, if it looks and smells like police brutality, it's police brutality.

Of course it was police brutality. There was no need for a police presence, save as a show of State power. This wasn't a demonstration in Madrid. If they hadn't been present, there'd have been no injuries - or do we think the Catalans were going to start beating each other up in all the excitement?

[David]

[Mugwump]

^ Having expressed an admiration for the way the Scottish referendum was handled, I wish the Spanish authorities had pursued that route. But given they did not, and given that the Catalan nationalists then chose to defy the constitution, I support any sovereign government within a broadly democratic society upholding its laws. Ignoring the outcome is certainly a tactic, but a doubtful one, as the secessionists will simply move on to their next provocation, having poked their finger into the woodwork and found mush.

Anarchy like this prompts violence, and one should rise above knee-jerk media narratives and question where and how violence takes place, from whom, toward whom, in what sequence. It's likely that "team red" and "team blue" thinking is good news, but poor analysis.

Spain is a modern EU country with a democratic system and the Catalunya region is already given very substantial autonomy. Its main beef seems to be that it is richer than the rest of Spain and wants to cease subsidising it (to be fair, given Spain's tendency to corruption, so would I). They are not a poor, brutalised or discriminated-against minority. So, starting from here, they should negotiate with the Spanish government and use their leverage as a bloc within the national parliament to operate via the constituted democratic process. In the absence of rank injustice, patience and forbearance and working with goodwill are underrated human qualities, but there are many good people who have them. They contribute far more to the good of the world than pocket Lenins who want a bigger job than provincial government.

[David]

I support any sovereign government within a broadly democratic society upholding its laws

Would you add a 'by any means' to the end of that sentence? And if not, where do you draw the line? (Personally, I would have thought beating unarmed protesters might be around abouts.)

[Mugwump]

^ no, of course not "by any means". And judging from the footage, there were very probably some instances of rank police brutality, which should be dealt with as a disciplinary or legal matter. But the footage also shows a very agitated situation on all sides, and it seems to be taken on the mobile phones of those who were not disinterested. With 12 officers "injured" while wearing riot gear, it's likely that there was violence flowing both ways. I just think we should try to be a bit more sceptical about news grabs, delve a bit below appearances, and consider issues of principle.

[David]

Here is some of that footage, by the way (not sure if it's the same video you saw):

https://youtube.com/watch?v=GI49YSCruwY

[Mugwump]

Here is some of that footage, by the way (not sure if it's the same video you saw):

https://youtube.com/watch?v=GI49YSCruwY

I saw the fist clip, not the later ones. In the first, I see one cop behaving badly (kicking and grabbing hair). The majority I see trying to use reasonable force to disperse an unlawful assembly. We do not know what events preceded this. In later clips we see police striking out with batons as they try to control an unruly crowd much larger than they. The injury on the man's back looks real, but pretty minor. Again, 12 police were injured despite being dressed like stormtroopers. Maybe there was a bit more to it than meets the lens.

As usual, I think, I am prepared to see potential fault on both sides and clearly some actions by the police in that footage warrant investigation - but all you seem to see, and imagine, is police brutality. I think your critical faculties, usually fairly acute, may be hijacked by ideology.