Deaths from Domestic Violence

[Mugwump]

David, when you write that the term evil is "inaccurate", I think you are still locked into the idea that there is some kind of natural science here. And that, I think, truly is inaccurate.

In truth, these are just terms that we use to label behaviour and patterns of behaviour. The subjective experience of an individual is fundamentally enigmatic to us, so we cannot usually tell the difference between mad and bad.

As an example, Josef Stalin was pretty clearly one of the most wicked men that ever lived ; but no truly sane human being is indifferent to the infliction of hideous suffering on other people, as he was. So was he mad, or bad ? He was not psychotic, as far as we could tell : his thought processes were very linear. But his cruelty was not, in some sense, rational. So it is fair to say that he was both mad and bad at the same time. The point of this is that the language is trying to get at something that it cannot access, which cannot be properly observed. Hence we can only look at the social use of these labels, and choose the one that seems to us conducive to positive human social life.

At a certain point, most arguments come down to the problems identified by Ludwig Wittgenstein - a kind of Einstein or Bohr among philosophers. In essence, he recognized that language simply cannot do what we try to make it do most of the time. Because his texts are dense, he is not widely discussed or taught outside formal philosophy courses, but his critical insights should be a vital text in our educational curriculum, for it would avoid a lot of wasted breath and conflict.

[thesoretoothsayer]

It's all about teaching men to respect women.
Oh, wait a sec:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-07-12/l ... ms/9978680

[think positive]

[Skids]

Yeah, it really is a man's world...

85% of homeless... are men
76% of suicides . ....are men
70% of murder victims .... are men
92% of workplace deaths .... are men
97% of war deaths .... are men

14% of men get custody after a divorce.

[Wokko]

Women are more likely to commit child abuse of a biological child than men are, and yet we don't hear about 'teaching women not to abuse children'.

One of the groups that is consistently found to have the highest domestic abuse rates is lesbian women. Teach lesbians not to abuse?

Women kill their own children more often than men do. Teach all women not to kill their children?

[stui magpie]

Getting defensive doesn't really help though. The fact is that the vast majority of those killed by someone close to them are killed by males, even though an Australian male is 40 times more likely to kill himself than his partner.

We need to somehow reframe the discussion to remove the finger pointing and the resulting defensiveness because while 99.9% of men don't abuse their partner, that defensiveness provides a screen for the 0.1% to hide behind.

[Mugwump]

[stui magpie]

^

I'm not that sure it's that simple. I've posted before about the chemical difference, but I'm starting to think it's more of a personality thing.

In hindsight, I knew 2 men who both bashed their wives when I was a kid. I didn't know then, I found out later. Much later in one case and I was surprised particularly in the latter case as my parents were friends with him and I liked him.

As a hypothesis, I think these men were missing something. A feeling of control of their lives, self esteem issues, pick a number of similar things. Being the bid dominant man at home, putting the missus and kids back in their box with a smack, was their way of boosting their own self esteem and regaining control, despite knowing that what they were doing was wrong. Basically about control and power. It's related to the why people bully others scenario.

Side note, I went to primary school with one of the sons and high school with the other. The former joined the navy at 15 as an apprentice chef and committed suicide in his 40's. His dad committed suicide in his 60's. The other pursued a footy career for a while, then was a diver with the police, then "died suddenly" in his late 40's early 50's, around the same age his dad died of a heart attack

[Mugwump]

^

I'm not that sure it's that simple. I've posted before about the chemical difference, but I'm starting to think it's more of a personality thing.

In hindsight, I knew 2 men who both bashed their wives when I was a kid. I didn't know then, I found out later. Much later in one case and I was surprised particularly in the latter case as my parents were friends with him and I liked him.

As a hypothesis, I think these men were missing something. A feeling of control of their lives, self esteem issues, pick a number of similar things. Being the bid dominant man at home, putting the missus and kids back in their box with a smack, was their way of boosting their own self esteem and regaining control, despite knowing that what they were doing was wrong. Basically about control and power. It's related to the why people bully others scenario.

Side note, I went to primary school with one of the sons and high school with the other. The former joined the navy at 15 as an apprentice chef and committed suicide in his 40's. His dad committed suicide in his 60's. The other pursued a footy career for a while, then was a diver with the police, then "died suddenly" in his late 40's early 50's, around the same age his dad died of a heart attack

I am sure you are correct. I think it is almost proven that testosterone is effectively a necessary condition for aggression, but not a sufficient one. The translation of potential to actual violence clearly depends on many environmental and social factors. Studies have shown Men with low testosterone will put up with higher levels of frustration than those with high testosterone, however.

[stui magpie]

I wonder if there's a correlation with height. Little mans disease.

Both guys I mentioned above were about 5'6"

[David]

[think positive]

Yeah, it really is a man's world...

85% of homeless... are men did they all leave a marriage behind? and since this is obviously its all womens fault, did she kick him out, for no reason of course, every time? how much does mental illness or PTSD have to do with this stat?

76% of suicides . ....are men how much of this have to do with real men dont cry or show emotion?

70% of murder victims .... are men means jack shit without the stats of sex of the killer. im guessing the higher percentage are male??


92% of workplace deaths .... are men not surprising considering the low percentage of women in "dangerous"jobs compared to men.

97% of war deaths .... are men not sure how you get equal numbers of women signing up

14% of men get custody after a divorce. how many want custody? more importantly how many have shared custody?

[think positive]

^

I'm not that sure it's that simple. I've posted before about the chemical difference, but I'm starting to think it's more of a personality thing.

In hindsight, I knew 2 men who both bashed their wives when I was a kid. I didn't know then, I found out later. Much later in one case and I was surprised particularly in the latter case as my parents were friends with him and I liked him.

As a hypothesis, I think these men were missing something. A feeling of control of their lives, self esteem issues, pick a number of similar things. Being the bid dominant man at home, putting the missus and kids back in their box with a smack, was their way of boosting their own self esteem and regaining control, despite knowing that what they were doing was wrong. Basically about control and power. It's related to the why people bully others scenario.

Side note, I went to primary school with one of the sons and high school with the other. The former joined the navy at 15 as an apprentice chef and committed suicide in his 40's. His dad committed suicide in his 60's. The other pursued a footy career for a while, then was a diver with the police, then "died suddenly" in his late 40's early 50's, around the same age his dad died of a heart attack

were these guys smaller - much smaller than their wives?

why were you surprised? back in the day my dad was popular, because he signed up for stuff, and put on an act, it wasnt until my younger sister made aussie and olympic teams that his true bully boy ways became some what obvious in public. and she is 8 years younger than me. No one knew.

and what if you did know? what would you or your parents have done? this question fascinates me, i guess i waited for a white knight for a long time, and then saved myself when it wasnt coming.

my dad is a little over 6 foot, he was always a big powerful man, easy 100-110 all his adult life (id say he is about 150 now). my mum was just 5'4" and about 55kg dripping wet. i dont know too many women with partners with such a difference in weight/strength/size the other way around. Is it Men dont hit women that stops them defending themselves these men?

And what could my mum possibly have done to defend herself? legally, before he killed her first? how many women die because the cops cant take action until its too damn late?

when i was 16 i had a mad passionate 2 years with a guy only slightly bigger than me, but a lot stronger, I thought he was my forever. so did everyone else. he gave me a black eye, hed never even looked at me funny before then, i walked that day. never looked back. but things were different even then, than in my parents and your parents day.

[David]

[roar]

Women are more likely to commit child abuse of a biological child than men are, and yet we don't hear about 'teaching women not to abuse children'.

One of the groups that is consistently found to have the highest domestic abuse rates is lesbian women. Teach lesbians not to abuse?

Women kill their own children more often than men do. Teach all women not to kill their children?

Yes, we should, and I dare say, we are teaching those things.