Ireland - referendum on Abortion

[Mugwump]

For mine, there's as many women out there who aren't fit to be parents as men, so it's fair that everyone gets a say.

I have my doubts on that. Though no doubt many men are better parents than many women, I suspect (on the basis of no real evidence that rises above anecdotal) that the population means would be significantly different.

[Mugwump]

[stui magpie]

Notwithstanding Mugwump's comments above, I was astounded to recently discover that Abortion is currently a crime in both NSW and New Zealand.

Both are now introducing legislation to fix that.

Firstly, NZ

https://www.smh.com.au/world/oceania/th ... 52fag.html

Wellington: A bill that would decriminalise abortion and allow women to self-refer to abortion clinics within the first 20 weeks of gestation has found a resounding majority at its first reading in New Zealand's Parliament.

Ninety-four MPs voted for it and 23 voted against it.

Seems like sensible legislation, I just can't understand why it's taken so long.

In NSW on the other hand, must be something in the Sydney water.

https://www.smh.com.au/politics/nsw/nsw ... 52fbu.html

Abortion is set to be decriminalised in NSW, after lower house MPs voted to remove terminations from the state's criminal code.

The bill to decriminalise abortion passed 59 to 31, but it created a split within the Liberals, with many of the party's 35 MPs opposed the bill.

At first glance you think 59 to 31 is way too close, but there's a few jarring things in this legislation.

The final vote came after almost three days of debate, with more than a dozen amendments put forward, many of which centred on the bill's regulation of abortions after 22 weeks.

The bill, which was co-sponsored by 15 MPs from across the political divide, allows abortion on request for women up to 22 weeks' gestation performed by a registered doctor. Women beyond 22 weeks would need the consent of two doctors.

22 weeks is cutting it too fine for mine, I prefer the 20 week threshold

Then there's this.

But amendments by Liberal MP Tanya Davies to ban sex-selection abortions, to lower the threshold for late term abortions from 22 to 20 weeks, and to require doctors ensure women are offered counselling were voted down.

Sorry, not happy Jan, there may be some circumstances where it's legit to want to terminate a pregnancy based on the sex of the fetus, but not many. That's not right IMO and is open to abuse. Don't like it.

However, if I was one of the MP's I'd be inclined to just get the legislation in so it's decriminalised and haggle over fine details later. You can always seek to amend legislation if there's evidence something is NQR.

The fact that Ireland, a country for so long conservative and held in sway by religion was able to legalise abortion while both socially progressive NSW and NZ considered it a crime is an absolute WTF for me. Thank geebus it seems some common sense has finally prevailed.

[David]

I broadly agree with you here, Stui, though the sex-selective abortion thing doesn't really bother me so much. Yes, sex-selective abortion comes from a bad motivation, but if our view is that the lives of pre-22-week-old foetuses are ethically inconsequential (and there is reasonable basis for this) then it shouldn't really matter why it's being done. On those grounds, I support state-funded early-term abortion on demand totally.

[stui magpie]

It's not the abortion per say, but the consequence if a number of people of cultural groups who value male children more than female, decide to abort female fetuses.

Abortion is still a big decision and making the decision to terminate a pregnancy just because you don't want a particular sex child, jars with me.