Chinese imperialism and future Australian sovereignty

[David]

I have to say, it’s hard to see Taiwan’s success vs China’s as anything other than a vindication of liberal capitalism vs whatever the hell "Maoism" actually was in practice. Of course there’s scale, their own dark authoritarian history and a range of other factors to consider, but still, the divergence in outcomes is hard to dispute.

[pietillidie]

Now I know why you you keep up with this clueless nonsense. It's another one of your inane formulae: it can't be "culture" because they're the same "culture", and the only difference must therefore be...human will! Not social difference, or foreign influence, or geopolitics, or geography, or prior local difference, or scale, or historical difference. Nope. Instead, the mainland is simply willing itself into poverty

Nope, because they're still the same "culture", much like a wealthy graduate of Yale who runs and investment firm in NY and a poor Alabaman rural worker are of the same "culture".

And FYI Taiwan is not "first world". Have you been there? I thought the rats would abduct me. We don't use the term "first world" anymore because while many countries are no longer destitute, they're still far poorer than their high income counterparts. You clearly don't have an even vaguely realistic sense of the difference in living standard and general amenity between a country of 5,000/10,000/20,000/30,000/40,0000 GDP per capita.

Taiwan's GDP is 50,000 per capita. One place behind Germany in world rankings.

Not to be distracted from the main point, China and Taiwan are extraordinarily different for all the reasons outlined. Taiwan and SK's relative wealth serves to show how much easier it is to integrate small East Asian countries at radical historical junctures, with colonial business/admin infrastructures (in this case via the brutal role of Japan), and strong development support from the rest of the world into the global economy.

China is just a different planet to the Asian Tigers and always has been.

On Taiwan's level of development, you've reminded me of the problems with PPP. I can tell you right now that you would not in any way feel that Taiwan and South Korea are high income countries comparable to Germany, Australia and Japan. Not within a margin. Have you seen average houses, streets, public buildings, public assets, work conditions, and so on, in these countries? The PPP does not control for standards and historical wealth. Seoul is a brilliant place, but you pay for living there in ways you would not accept for very long.

Taiwan and SK are brilliant achievements and significantly why I have faith in East Asian development, but the quality of life hasn't had time to catch up with purchasing power. That will take further waves of development, regardless of what PPP tells you. But good spot; naive GDP/capita no longer represents the comparative reality of 'newly developed' countries.

However, that only strengthens the main point, doesn't it? China was never going to be that mobile, which is why you need patience. Again, don't forget the tyranny that preceded Taiwanese, South Korean and Singaporean development. This was always going to be more attenuated in China by virtue of vastness, mass and historical inertia. Sadly, racial and nationalistic chest beating from without will only slow the process, heightening the risk of the very thing everyone claims they fear.

But that's the prodigal populist Western mantra of our times: recklessly grab the warm joy of fist waving and scapegoating today even as it worsens life tomorrow.

[pietillidie]

I have to say, it’s hard to see Taiwan’s success vs China’s as anything other than a vindication of liberal capitalism vs whatever the hell "Maoism" actually was in practice. Of course there’s scale, their own dark authoritarian history and a range of other factors to consider, but still, the divergence in outcomes is hard to dispute.

But that just sidesteps the central problem, which is how capitalist transition takes place. No one was ever going to sufficiently bomb/shock/impose/control China into radically breaking with its lived reality and taking up liberal capitalism. People talk as if this is something that can be done on Sunday morning, as if deciding between a latte and a flat white. This has always been the vexing development question; just because capitalism evolved in a certain place and time doesn't mean it can simply be taken up elsewhere like a new hobby.

After Japan lost the war, SK and Taiwan virtually had liberal capitalism thrust upon them by force, which was easy enough to do because they are geographically tiny, homogenous in the case of Korea and relatively so in the case of Taiwan, and willing to accept a phase of fascist rule (so also Singapore).

So, these tiny success stories have a lot in common, with the largest (South Korea) being the most homogenous (and therefore easiest to control in many ways), yet it still took the devastation of a major war and a lengthy series of brutal dictatorships for the country to take up the capitalist cross. This is no coincidence; people just can't jump out of their own skins into a new reality.

I don't think the amount of US and UN intervention and hardship it took to set these countries on their current path is being accounted for here. Few peoples if any would agree to take up that yolk, with all of its uncertainty, decades in advance of a return on investment on the whim of heavy-handed foreigners. That could never ever ever be done with China, and it's beyond me why people can't grasp the obvious here.

This is where the trite personification of nations that you rightly criticised above goes from a mere silly notion to a deceitful and dangerous one. There is no Committee on the Future of History for All Citizens and never was, no matter what vain pretensions the CCP has, or what imaginary god-like powers people keep granting it in their mind's eye. As we speak, people are conjuring, nay willing, a monster to arise because they're addicted to children's stories, and it's just no fun beating up on Muslims anymore.

[Morrigu]

[think positive]

well i believe her!! i mean, it must be trumps fault surely!!!

my hubby has been warning about this for years, very very sneaky and manipulative for a third world developing country!!

none of the above surprises me, its a worm and its evil. they sure as hell are not doing it for our good.

[Morrigu]

So it would seem that the Chinese believe the suggestion that pangolins were the intermediate host for the spread of coronavirus from bats to humans - knew that telling them it came from rhino horn, bear bile, lion bones etc was the way to go!! IF they actually enforce it it's great news for pangolins!!!

Endangered Pangolins Removed from Traditional Medicine List in China

While wild pangolin populations in China have been severely depleted by hunting and consumption, small numbers of the native Chinese Pangolin, classified as ‘Critically Endangered’ by IUCN, remain in parts of China. The government also announced plans to restore these populations by stepping up field patrols and habitat restoration efforts.

“The increased protection coupled with the swift and comprehensive closure of live wildlife markets and removal of many wild species from the list of what can be consumed as food in China were already very positive steps to saving the pangolin worldwide and reducing the possibility of them ever being a vector for disease. And now this announcement, effectively closing the legal sales of pangolin scales, shuts the last major loophole in pangolin protection efforts,” said WildAid CEO Peter Knights.

Pangolins have become a conservation priority globally in recent years as they are the most highly trafficked wild mammal, with upwards of 200,000 consumed annually for their meat and scales in parts of Asia. As pangolin populations in Asia have dwindled, an increase in shipments from Africa has emerged. In 2019 alone, authorities seized numerous massive shipments amounting to over 130 tons, which, depending on the species, could represent some 400,000 pangolins from Africa.

Pangolin scales are used in traditional medicine although leaders in the field maintain that there are ample sustainable substitutes for scales.

The COVID-19 pandemic has also placed a spotlight on the illegal trade in pangolins as some scientists have found a similar coronavirus in Sunda pangolins suggesting they may have served as an intermediary in the transmission from bats to humans, but this remains a matter of ongoing scientific debate.

Last week, China’s National People’s Council announced it will strictly enforce its current ban on live wildlife markets and recently revamped laws on wildlife consumption to protect national security.

Premier Li Keqiang reported there will be “severe punishment for illegal hunting and trading of wild animals” and NPC Standing Committee chairman Li Zhanshu announced he will personally oversee inspections in eight provincial-level regions where wildlife trafficking has been pervasive.

https://www.ecowatch.com/china-pangolin ... belltitem3

[pietillidie]

well i believe her!! i mean, it must be trumps fault surely!!!

my hubby has been warning about this for years, very very sneaky and manipulative for a third world developing country!!

none of the above surprises me, its a worm and its evil. they sure as hell are not doing it for our good.

I predict that when other people are no longer destitute they will compete with us and the self-entitled in our midst will sulk and throw toddler tantrums rather than trying to develop new and productive arrangements, wasting vital time and worsening the situation.

The completely unaware Pharisaism and self-absorption are a joke. Now the shoe is on the other foot people finally care about propaganda and espionage, unlike during the Iraq War, or when mining companies turned the Liberal Party into a lobbying and policy wing, wrecking the environnment and manipulating the democratic process you claim to care about.

What happened to the 1.8B Muslims you were convinced were taking over the planet? Have you somehow overcome the fear of being forced to eat Halal KFC, or did that turn out to be laughable nonsense?

[stui magpie]

Interesting opinion article in the Aged.

Xi Jinping has set China the goal of leading the world in cutting edge technology, but has overlooked the very basics. While the regime is pursuing quantum computing, artificial intelligence and space dominance, it has neglected one of the founding concepts of physics. Isaac Newton's third law says that for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.

As Xi pushes harder and harder for global dominance, he is provoking a growing pushback. Not just from the US. A growing number of people, countries and organisations are realising that Xi's China is not the China they thought they knew.

The mask has slipped off, they're not even bothering with it anymore and people are seeing them.

Among the latest to awaken is the secretary-general of NATO, Jens Stoltenberg. The North Atlantic Treaty Alliance was forged to protect Europe from Russia. But Stoltenberg has now named China as a threat, too. China was too big a threat for America to manage by itself, the former Norwegian Labour prime minister said in a remarkable speech last week. Beijing was now a threat to democratic values everywhere and a global military force to be reckoned with.

Wow, But I suppose, what would he know?

China was not the enemy, he said, yet it was a clear and present danger: "They already have the second-largest defence budget. They are investing heavily in modern military capabilities, including missiles that can reach all NATO-allied countries."

Hey Tannin, what was that you said about war?

But again, it's not just the USA

The major powers of western Europe have grown alarmed about Beijing's intentions too. Germany has toughened its laws to protect companies against Chinese takeover, for instance.

And Britain is rethinking its embrace of China's cyber champion, Huawei.

We should strengthen our laws here too, particularly around primary produce , power generation and water.

Compared to China, even the US is not the biggest one. Soon China will have the biggest economy in the world, they are leading in investing in a lot of advanced technologies, and including parts of artificial intelligence, quantum computing and so on, then it's even more important that we stand together, North America and Europe together, because we cannot manage this alone."

But they're just a developing country aren't they?

the European Union published a report naming China and Russia for using the pandemic to "cause harm" by launching a "massive wave" of health care hoaxes, online scams, hate speech and coronavirus conspiracy theories on social media.

Really? Taking advantage of the pandemic? Naaaaaaaah. But China doesn't have access to western social media, the great firewall of China keeps them out, doesn't it?

Twitter last week killed 170,000 Chinese government-linked accounts that were used to push fake news about the Hong Kong protests, coronavirus and the Black Lives Matter demonstrations. Twitter was prompted by research by the Australian Strategic Policy Institute.

Oh, whoops. The CCP strikes again, lovely petals aren't they and One more reason to be pissed of with Australia.

So, in conclusion,

Xi could be forgiven for thinking that he could get away with an aggressive campaign for dominance. For years, he did as he pleased, broke international laws and encountered no real resistance.

When Barack Obama told him to stop seizing disputed maritime territories from China's neighbours, Xi ignored him and paid no price. When pressed, he promised Obama that China would not militarise those territories in the South China Sea. He went ahead anyway. And paid no price.

He found that he could build a complex of concentration camps for the persecution of a million of the Uighur people of Xinjiang, and yet continue to be courted in capitals across the world.

And who knows? Perhaps he will get away with a great deal more yet. But day by day, the world is awakening and Xi's thrusts are generating a wider resistance and even some pushback. It's only physics.

Screw diplomacy with this mob, shit's gonna get interesting.

https://www.theage.com.au/national/in-x ... 552pk.html

[pietillidie]

[think positive]

well i believe her!! i mean, it must be trumps fault surely!!!

my hubby has been warning about this for years, very very sneaky and manipulative for a third world developing country!!

none of the above surprises me, its a worm and its evil. they sure as hell are not doing it for our good.

I predict that when other people are no longer destitute they will compete with us and the self-entitled in our midst will sulk and throw toddler tantrums rather than trying to develop new and productive arrangements, wasting vital time and worsening the situation.

The completely unaware Pharisaism and self-absorption are a joke. Now the shoe is on the other foot people finally care about propaganda and espionage, unlike during the Iraq War, or when mining companies turned the Liberal Party into a lobbying and policy wing, wrecking the environnment and manipulating the democratic process you claim to care about.

What happened to the 1.8B Muslims you were convinced were taking over the planet? Have you somehow overcome the fear of being forced to eat Halal KFC, or did that turn out to be laughable nonsense?

PTID it was not me who started the conversation on halal KFC, i dont eat KFC and never have. I honestly dont know how to defend myself here anymore. but i will not stand by and see myself accused of things i did not say or do. As for Halal, it is a cruel and unnecessary kill method, and i stand by my comments on that.

"The UK Farm Animal Welfare Council says that the method by which kosher and halal meat is produced causes severe suffering to animals and it should be banned immediately. According to FAWC it can take up to two minutes for cattle to bleed to death, thus amounting to animal abuse".

I still refused to buy Halal meat.

[Morrigu]

<snip>

That was a good post Stui and whilst my disdain for China is well... I’m also encouraged that the great work being done by AA and local Chinese activists seems to be achieving some positive results and before the oracle points out that all countries need to do better in this arena - yeah I know

SUCCESS!
A zoo in north eastern China has ended live animal performances following workshops and exhibitions from Animals Asia on animal welfare and sentience.

Even during the uncertainty caused by the global Covid-19 pandemic, progress is being made for captive animals in China. On April 23 Qingdao Forestry Wildlife World, one of China's safari parks in the north eastern Shandong Province, officially announced that they would be stopping live animal performances with immediate effect.

Animals Asia’s Animal Welfare Director Dave Neale said of the move: “This announcement is a positive step in the right direction. Animals Asia applauds the zoo’s leadership in moving from a model of entertainment and coercion to one of education and observation. A clear example of kindness in action.”
https://www.animalsasia.org/intl/media/ ... ances.html

[think positive]

It’s a good start, by the signs hopefully they mean it. Cheers

[pietillidie]

well i believe her!! i mean, it must be trumps fault surely!!!

my hubby has been warning about this for years, very very sneaky and manipulative for a third world developing country!!

none of the above surprises me, its a worm and its evil. they sure as hell are not doing it for our good.

I predict that when other people are no longer destitute they will compete with us and the self-entitled in our midst will sulk and throw toddler tantrums rather than trying to develop new and productive arrangements, wasting vital time and worsening the situation.

The completely unaware Pharisaism and self-absorption are a joke. Now the shoe is on the other foot people finally care about propaganda and espionage, unlike during the Iraq War, or when mining companies turned the Liberal Party into a lobbying and policy wing, wrecking the environnment and manipulating the democratic process you claim to care about.

What happened to the 1.8B Muslims you were convinced were taking over the planet? Have you somehow overcome the fear of being forced to eat Halal KFC, or did that turn out to be laughable nonsense?

PTID it was not me who started the conversation on halal KFC, i dont eat KFC and never have. I honestly dont know how to defend myself here anymore. but i will not stand by and see myself accused of things i did not say or do. As for Halal, it is a cruel and unnecessary kill method, and i stand by my comments on that.

"The UK Farm Animal Welfare Council says that the method by which kosher and halal meat is produced causes severe suffering to animals and it should be banned immediately. According to FAWC it can take up to two minutes for cattle to bleed to death, thus amounting to animal abuse".

I still refused to buy Halal meat.

My point wasn't about Halal meat or KFC; it was about the absurdity of that whole Muslim panic period in the VPT. There is a history of disproportionate reaction to supposed threats, particularly the latest 'rival' group. People on here actually knew far more about Muslim culture and societies than they do about China; that is, a tiny fraction more than than bugger all.

This exaggerated lurching leads to instability and therefore poor electoral decisions, from Bush and Iraq to Tony Abbott, Brexit, Trump and now Johnson. All of these have been extremely destructive and costly mistakes for the countries concerned, involving lost wars, financial crises, continued economic decline, loss of internal stability, loss of external influence and a general loss of capacity to deal with the adult complexities of the world.

Extreme reaction creates the climate for the election of extremists who only accelerate decline and increase socioeconomic instability. Do people want war with China or do they want mutual prosperity? Because I see nothing on this board that makes me think enough smart decisions are going to be made at the ballot box to ensure your children have a safe and prosperous future.

This is happening before your very eyes. The more you rage about China, the less time you have to understand what needs to be done to make things work, and the more you encourage people to elect Johnsons and Trumps, making things worse.

[Pies4shaw]

Don’t over-complicate things, PTID. What we need is a strong leader who will stand up to China, tell them what’s wrong with their society and make them fix it. Because that always works.

[stui magpie]

^

And maybe the Prime Minister of India is the man to do it.

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 433796.cms