I seriously hope Collingwood players dont read this bulletin board because it seems ridiculous the amount of speculating and judgement that is passed on in regards to them all. It amazes me how many posts there are signalling the end of particular players careers by ill informed Collingwood supporters. So far I have read that Rich/Kinnear/Scotland/Presty/betheras/b Johnson/ and half a dozen other players are gone(hell thats our whole backline). I think as supporters sure we like to voice some opinion but often we do that without taking into consideration whose sensitivity's are at stake especially those that belong to the players that we say we support week in week out. Some of the postings are a farce and make the AFL 'rumour' posts look credible. Lets all get a grip here please.Time will tell who we delist/trade, lets put ourselves in the players shoes and be more sensitive about this issue.
Louis
Collingwood Players.
Moderator: bbmods
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AlfAndrews
I really don't get it with all these amateur recruiters, amateur selectors and amateur coaches. If they're such bloody experts why aren't they in the job. But I guess that's part of footy culture for some stupid reason.
And people LOVE to think that they're "in the know".
"Oh, yes. Tarrant's gone. I have it on good authority. We're getting Ang Christou plus the number 305 draft pick."
You know the drill.
They love to think they've got the inside story. It makes them feel important, I suppose.
But the fact is, even those on the inside don't have the "inside story". Because the "inside story" is still unfolding, still evolving. No one KNOWS what is gunna happen until it happens.
That's why I've rejected that side of footy culture. Trying to tell the recruiters how to do their job. Trying to tell the selectors and the coach how to do their job. I trust them. Even though I sometimes have a whinge when they get it blatantly wrong. The fact is they're doing a better job than I could do.
Instead of trying to take over the football department, I'm more interested in how well the Cheer Squad is chanting ... because at least that's something I know about, and can do something about.
Let the recruiters do the recruiting.
Let the selectors do the selecting.
Let the coach do the coaching.
Let the administrators do the administrating.
Meanwhile I'll just go and gargle a few razor blades to get my voice in shape for next season.
**floreat pica**
And people LOVE to think that they're "in the know".
"Oh, yes. Tarrant's gone. I have it on good authority. We're getting Ang Christou plus the number 305 draft pick."
You know the drill.
They love to think they've got the inside story. It makes them feel important, I suppose.
But the fact is, even those on the inside don't have the "inside story". Because the "inside story" is still unfolding, still evolving. No one KNOWS what is gunna happen until it happens.
That's why I've rejected that side of footy culture. Trying to tell the recruiters how to do their job. Trying to tell the selectors and the coach how to do their job. I trust them. Even though I sometimes have a whinge when they get it blatantly wrong. The fact is they're doing a better job than I could do.
Instead of trying to take over the football department, I'm more interested in how well the Cheer Squad is chanting ... because at least that's something I know about, and can do something about.
Let the recruiters do the recruiting.
Let the selectors do the selecting.
Let the coach do the coaching.
Let the administrators do the administrating.
Meanwhile I'll just go and gargle a few razor blades to get my voice in shape for next season.
**floreat pica**
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MarkT
- Posts: 1350
- Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2001 6:01 pm
- Location: Melb
What is that you don't get Alf?
To me is seems so easy to get. It is simple. Collingwood supporters like to talk about Collingwood. We want to do better and better and better. We like to offer our opinions on who we need and even who we don't need. We all watch the games and we all see strengths and weakenesses in players and the team.
We have opinions and we express them. I don't many of us on here actually ting anyong at CFC will take any notice but that's not the point.
In the end it is a continuation of the age old mates discussion at the game. Whilst I may get bored with recurring themes, I like to know what others think. I also find it interesting that there is not actually much difference of opinion re most players amonst supporters.
We should the those paid to do a job do it. But surely we can discuss or even argue about whether we agree or disagree. In the end it will probably be proived that the recruiters did the best with what they had to offer and were offered.
To me is seems so easy to get. It is simple. Collingwood supporters like to talk about Collingwood. We want to do better and better and better. We like to offer our opinions on who we need and even who we don't need. We all watch the games and we all see strengths and weakenesses in players and the team.
We have opinions and we express them. I don't many of us on here actually ting anyong at CFC will take any notice but that's not the point.
In the end it is a continuation of the age old mates discussion at the game. Whilst I may get bored with recurring themes, I like to know what others think. I also find it interesting that there is not actually much difference of opinion re most players amonst supporters.
We should the those paid to do a job do it. But surely we can discuss or even argue about whether we agree or disagree. In the end it will probably be proived that the recruiters did the best with what they had to offer and were offered.
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Scottie Davo
- Posts: 68
- Joined: Mon Feb 19, 2001 8:01 pm
- Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Louis,
No offence mate, but I think it is clearly a healthy symptom for all supporters to get involved in whatever speculating they want.
It shows they are interested in the Club. I cannot help but feel that if the Collingwood players do read this, and they feel upset for whatever reason, then perhaps they need to reassess their own fragility as it is all just that-speculation.
If they have their feelings hurt due to anyone criticising their form or stating they are gone then I shudder to think of how well they hold up after a sledging barrage on the field.
I think they all know better.
In fact, perhaps if these players made an effort to at least get in here for a change and contribute something...anything...maybe the comments will turnaround for the better.
That isn't too much to ask is it...I mean...if it is good enough for the President to get in here...
The future is black and white.
No offence mate, but I think it is clearly a healthy symptom for all supporters to get involved in whatever speculating they want.
It shows they are interested in the Club. I cannot help but feel that if the Collingwood players do read this, and they feel upset for whatever reason, then perhaps they need to reassess their own fragility as it is all just that-speculation.
If they have their feelings hurt due to anyone criticising their form or stating they are gone then I shudder to think of how well they hold up after a sledging barrage on the field.
I think they all know better.
In fact, perhaps if these players made an effort to at least get in here for a change and contribute something...anything...maybe the comments will turnaround for the better.
That isn't too much to ask is it...I mean...if it is good enough for the President to get in here...
The future is black and white.
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Leonin5=star
- Posts: 218
- Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2001 6:01 pm
- Location: melbourne
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AlfAndrews
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Leonin5=star
- Posts: 218
- Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2001 6:01 pm
- Location: melbourne
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DaicosForever
Scottie Davo,
I disagree, I dont think players should be asked to walk into this chatroom environment and contribute to this banter. What we discuss is far from constructive to the side and they should not be exposed to our often subjective and ill informed commentary.
A lot of these players are young and are only starting to find their confidence and when a Chris Tarrant see's that after all his improvement he is still 'tradeable' it would effect him. Remeber this guy almost walked out on us because of the expectations placed on him by supporters and fellow teammates. I guess he should have been stronger but unfortunatley these days that is not the case often enough.
Sure they are trained to handle pressure and everything that comes with that on the ground, I agree, but unfortunatley I think we'd be suprised if we knew how much the actions/opinions of supporters actually impress upon the players.
Cut them some slack is all I 'd like to see. Players will be delisted but ALF sums it up perfectly in saying its very much an unfolding story and no-one knows where anyone will end up. Its all speculation after all...
Louis
[This message has been edited by DaicosForever (edited 10 September 2001).]
I disagree, I dont think players should be asked to walk into this chatroom environment and contribute to this banter. What we discuss is far from constructive to the side and they should not be exposed to our often subjective and ill informed commentary.
A lot of these players are young and are only starting to find their confidence and when a Chris Tarrant see's that after all his improvement he is still 'tradeable' it would effect him. Remeber this guy almost walked out on us because of the expectations placed on him by supporters and fellow teammates. I guess he should have been stronger but unfortunatley these days that is not the case often enough.
Sure they are trained to handle pressure and everything that comes with that on the ground, I agree, but unfortunatley I think we'd be suprised if we knew how much the actions/opinions of supporters actually impress upon the players.
Cut them some slack is all I 'd like to see. Players will be delisted but ALF sums it up perfectly in saying its very much an unfolding story and no-one knows where anyone will end up. Its all speculation after all...
Louis
[This message has been edited by DaicosForever (edited 10 September 2001).]
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Scottie Davo
- Posts: 68
- Joined: Mon Feb 19, 2001 8:01 pm
- Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Louis,
Fair enough I guess, But two quick points.
1) Banter is only that...banter. It is a part of the world we live in and frankly if Chris Tarrant comes in here and looks at what we are bantering about-and then measures that against the huge support all Collingwood supporters give, maybe he can weigh one up against the other and make the decision.
2) The idea for players to get in here is not merely to contribute to the banter-it is to tell us their thoughts, what they are up to...anything as mentioned previously.
Hardly a cumbersome exercise considering the efforts of Nick and Mike in setting it all up.
The future is black and white.
Fair enough I guess, But two quick points.
1) Banter is only that...banter. It is a part of the world we live in and frankly if Chris Tarrant comes in here and looks at what we are bantering about-and then measures that against the huge support all Collingwood supporters give, maybe he can weigh one up against the other and make the decision.
2) The idea for players to get in here is not merely to contribute to the banter-it is to tell us their thoughts, what they are up to...anything as mentioned previously.
Hardly a cumbersome exercise considering the efforts of Nick and Mike in setting it all up.
The future is black and white.
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Scottie Davo
- Posts: 68
- Joined: Mon Feb 19, 2001 8:01 pm
- Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Louis,
Fair enough I guess, But two quick points.
1) Banter is only that...banter. It is a part of the world we live in and frankly if Chris Tarrant comes in here and looks at what we are bantering about-and then measures that against the huge support all Collingwood supporters give, maybe he can weigh one up against the other and make the decision.
2) The idea for players to get in here is not merely to contribute to the banter-it is to tell us their thoughts, what they are up to...anything as mentioned previously.
Hardly a cumbersome exercise considering the efforts of Nick and Mike in setting it all up.
The future is black and white.
Fair enough I guess, But two quick points.
1) Banter is only that...banter. It is a part of the world we live in and frankly if Chris Tarrant comes in here and looks at what we are bantering about-and then measures that against the huge support all Collingwood supporters give, maybe he can weigh one up against the other and make the decision.
2) The idea for players to get in here is not merely to contribute to the banter-it is to tell us their thoughts, what they are up to...anything as mentioned previously.
Hardly a cumbersome exercise considering the efforts of Nick and Mike in setting it all up.
The future is black and white.
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Mike
- Posts: 3137
- Joined: Fri Sep 20, 1996 7:01 pm
- Location: Lilydale, Tas.
- Has liked: 89 times
- Been liked: 26 times
WARNING - HOBBYHORSE. Long post follows.
I think one of the requirements of playing AFL football is a thick skin. Players have to learn to live with criticism, even if it is hostile or inaccurate. They are going to see it on the Bulletin Boards, in the press, on television and radio and they will hear it from their own supporters in the crowd during a game. A thin-skinned player is not going to last long.
Mark is right we all have our opinions and the discussion is healthy. The problem arises when supporters become convinced that they know better than the people to whom the Club pays serious money to do the job and become detractors. It's very easy to look in from the outside, particularly in retrospect, and point out dud trades or selections; or work out the coaching move that would have won a game, but that completely devalues the skills and professional and intimate knowledge of the professionals employed to do that job. I would never suggest those professionals are beyond accountability, but they must be given room to do the job without interference. We all have strengths and weaknesses and we can all be made to look incompetent if our weaknesses are highlighted at the expense of our strengths. Negative criticism can always be made to sound plausible for that reason alone - look hard enough and you'll find a weakness to exploit.
The King / McKee trade is a classic example. Looked at retrospectively and in isolation, as it often is, a great argument can be made that we lack competent recruiting staff, but when you stand back and consider the big picture and look at the difference in performance and potential between our current list and that of our list as recently as two or three years ago and the picture becomes very different. The detractors will always have ammunition and they will often generate bandwagon support, but they invariably highlight negatives and overlook positives to 'prove' the accuracy of their beliefs.
The same argument applies to the players. For some reason the detractors completely overlook the fact that every player who plays at AFL level is doing so because he has earned that right by rising to the top of his current pack. It is impossible to know which players will fail unexpectedly at the ultimate level, so they must be assessed at the level at which they are playing. There is a law in business that says that a person will always be promoted to a position one level above their level of competence. The same applies to football, we can't know a player's limit until it is reached, but when it is reached the detractors have a field day, they are so perceptive that they have known all along that the player was a dud.
Detractors actually feel so strongly about players who have risen to the top of their field and have then, for whatever reason, failed, that they actually dislike and often even hate the player in question. This results in a torrent of negative and often abusive criticism which includes irrational personal feelings about the player in question. Wild, Godden and now Steve McKee are classic examples of this. We've all seen it, topic headings yelling "Dud", "Weak", "Soft", "Lazy", etc. followed by a torrent of vitriol because the player in question doesn't do what the poster considers that he should. There have even been suggestions recently that players such as Tyson Lane deliberately play at half ability for most of the season and then lift their game for the last few rounds to save their necks. This ridiculous assertion goes back to knowing better than our football staff - the unique insight of the poster enables him to see these glaring deficiencies in the players when the coaching staff, who almost live with them and know them and their football intimately, are totally blind.
I suppose what I'm saying is that by all means be critical, but be critical of the big picture and not the detail, and accept that your knowledge may be limited. If we are to employ football staff to do a job and recruit players to play the game we must accept that they need the freedom to do what they do in the way that they do it best. It's no use employing experts if all they do is what they're told.
I think one of the requirements of playing AFL football is a thick skin. Players have to learn to live with criticism, even if it is hostile or inaccurate. They are going to see it on the Bulletin Boards, in the press, on television and radio and they will hear it from their own supporters in the crowd during a game. A thin-skinned player is not going to last long.
Mark is right we all have our opinions and the discussion is healthy. The problem arises when supporters become convinced that they know better than the people to whom the Club pays serious money to do the job and become detractors. It's very easy to look in from the outside, particularly in retrospect, and point out dud trades or selections; or work out the coaching move that would have won a game, but that completely devalues the skills and professional and intimate knowledge of the professionals employed to do that job. I would never suggest those professionals are beyond accountability, but they must be given room to do the job without interference. We all have strengths and weaknesses and we can all be made to look incompetent if our weaknesses are highlighted at the expense of our strengths. Negative criticism can always be made to sound plausible for that reason alone - look hard enough and you'll find a weakness to exploit.
The King / McKee trade is a classic example. Looked at retrospectively and in isolation, as it often is, a great argument can be made that we lack competent recruiting staff, but when you stand back and consider the big picture and look at the difference in performance and potential between our current list and that of our list as recently as two or three years ago and the picture becomes very different. The detractors will always have ammunition and they will often generate bandwagon support, but they invariably highlight negatives and overlook positives to 'prove' the accuracy of their beliefs.
The same argument applies to the players. For some reason the detractors completely overlook the fact that every player who plays at AFL level is doing so because he has earned that right by rising to the top of his current pack. It is impossible to know which players will fail unexpectedly at the ultimate level, so they must be assessed at the level at which they are playing. There is a law in business that says that a person will always be promoted to a position one level above their level of competence. The same applies to football, we can't know a player's limit until it is reached, but when it is reached the detractors have a field day, they are so perceptive that they have known all along that the player was a dud.
Detractors actually feel so strongly about players who have risen to the top of their field and have then, for whatever reason, failed, that they actually dislike and often even hate the player in question. This results in a torrent of negative and often abusive criticism which includes irrational personal feelings about the player in question. Wild, Godden and now Steve McKee are classic examples of this. We've all seen it, topic headings yelling "Dud", "Weak", "Soft", "Lazy", etc. followed by a torrent of vitriol because the player in question doesn't do what the poster considers that he should. There have even been suggestions recently that players such as Tyson Lane deliberately play at half ability for most of the season and then lift their game for the last few rounds to save their necks. This ridiculous assertion goes back to knowing better than our football staff - the unique insight of the poster enables him to see these glaring deficiencies in the players when the coaching staff, who almost live with them and know them and their football intimately, are totally blind.
I suppose what I'm saying is that by all means be critical, but be critical of the big picture and not the detail, and accept that your knowledge may be limited. If we are to employ football staff to do a job and recruit players to play the game we must accept that they need the freedom to do what they do in the way that they do it best. It's no use employing experts if all they do is what they're told.
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DaicosForever