Post Match. Port overpowers Pies. All comments, please.

[PyreneesPie]

I added up total score involvements for Collingwood players and it comes to 89. We didn’t have 89 scores or scoring chances

If Grundy hits out to advantage, Adams clears it, handpasses to Pendlebury who kicks it to Elliot who kicks a behind, that's 4 score involvements for 1 score

So basically it’s a meaningless stat then.It means that anyone who touched the ball leading up to a goal or a point is credited with a score involvement.

Seems like it doesn’t it doris. Then again, I reckon quite a few stats are meaningless in conveying the quality of a player's game

[simon tonna]

Unbelievable!!! You're judging the calibre of other posters' comments as carping because the players concerned are Collingwood greats, yet you stood at the head of the line to throw sh*t upon one of our greatest for months on end, at every opportunity!!!!

If you're referring to Buckley, I don't think you'll find any criticism of him from me in his capacity as a wonderful footballer. His "coaching" is a whole different thing - but then, again, we both know he won't be going into the AFL Hall of Fame for his coaching, don't we? Let's be serious, he isn't even clearly Collingwood's best coach this season, let alone "one of our greatest" coaches.

Anyone who thinks Buckley can coach should be watching what Stephenson is doing in the Carlton-North Melbourne game. And to argue that it was a salary cap issue when we still carried senior guys like Greenwood into the 2021 season on about the same money as Stephenson is laughable.

Stevo was one of the top 3 picks we had in our possession in a decade. So what does Buckley do with him after a debut year in which we make a granny playing him forward pocket? Play him in the back line to teach the guy in his second real year to be more accountable.

[Pies4shaw]

I added up total score involvements for Collingwood players and it comes to 89
We didn’t have 89 scores or scoring chances so to me personally it’s now seems a meaningless stat that is given to anyone who touches a ball anytime leading to a score

What it shows is the extent to which particular players get involved in the passages of play that lead to goals. It's obviously spurious to make an argument that a player with one or two score involvements had made any particular contribution. However, where a player is - as Sidebottom was last evening - involved in the play better than every second time the team scores, there's a message in that that the player has been instrumental in the effective things the team did to score.

Also, I used the statistic in the context of a number of other stats, as you will have observed. Total disposals, number of contested possessions, disposal efficiency etc etc. So, my comment was "Anyone who watched the game fairly knows that Grundy and Sidebottom carried a team full of children tonight. 13 contested possessions each, 7 clearances each, 26 disposals apiece, Grundy had 8 score involvements and Sidebottom had 10. I cannot believe that people would bag them for their effort or their contributions."

They may or may not have been amongst our better players, depending upon one's individual assessment- but when a couple of players are amongst those who get the most disposals, were the two players who won the most contested ball, were the two who had the most clearances for our team, when they were heavily involved in our scoring passages of play, there is no merit in bagging them.

I agreed with you in late 2019 (I think it was) that Sidebottom is probably reaching the end. There is no doubt that he isn't the player he was. However, as I understand it, he's going around the park as an "elder statesman" playing for about the same money as Cox. Why in that context is Sidebottom a particular focus for angst? Whatever the true reason, it isn't to be found in how he went about his work or the obvious effort he put in last night.

[Pies4shaw]

Anyone who thinks Buckley can coach should be watching what Stephenson is doing in the Carlton-North Melbourne game. And to argue that it was a salary cap issue when we still carried senior guys like Greenwood into the 2021 season on about the same money as Stephenson is laughable.

I need to correct you in that use of tense, there, MBFC. Happily for us (belatedly, of course, and after a wasted decade), it is "could" coach, not "can" coach.

[inxs88]

Anyone who watched the game fairly knows that Grundy and Sidebottom carried a team full of children tonight. 13 contested possessions each, 7 clearances each, 26 disposals apiece, Grundy had 8 score involvements and Sidebottom had 10. I cannot believe that people would bag them for their effort or their contributions. It was like sending them out to play in a Dads and Kids scratch match. People need to try to keep a little balance.

Anyway, next week, Sidebottom will become "the most overrated player in the AFL to play more games for Collingwood than Buckley." I hope they put that on the run-through banner.

At some stage, some of you people need to give up your carping. These guys are all-time Collingwood greats, playing through a tough season with not much grown-up help.

You know
You are a Grundy Sycophant.
The trouble with Grundy is he doesn't have an impact!!!!!!!!
Like when Dixon beat him and a goal was scored.
He is a liability as a ruckman the last few years.
Love to see him on the market.
I guarantee no one and I mean no one would trade for him and pay him that massive salary,
No one and I mean no one would even consider getting Sidey.
You live in the past and continually throw up useless data to justify your beliefs.
Grundy has no connect with the midfield ...absolutely certain of that.
He is an ordinary player,

Nick's should censure you for the most unintelligent comment of the year. I guess you'd keep Mason Cox ahead of Grundy on the list yeah??

[inxs88]

I thought Ginnivans seven touches were all composed and very effective.
He worked right up the ground and that’s new to him but he was pretty good with ball in hand.
It was an upgrade on Henry’s debut but we have all seen what can happen in the space of a few games with some of these kids.
I think Jack is another one who looks to have a future at the elite level. The carrot is there for all of them, work your arses off in the off season and preseason and you will get your chance in 2022.

Good call. The worst thing they could do is drop him. He looked composed, disposed like a natural footballer and was composed. Keep playing

[jatsad]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yPW5JDZolu4

What about playing Lynch as first ruck and playing Grundy as a ruck rover? I think it is worth a shot to have a massive presence in the centre square. Then we play Grundy a bit up forward and around the ground and also doing some ruck work. Worth a shot.

They should give Lynch the opportunity to develop his ruckwork. There will never be a better opportunity. Grundy should be rested and brought out out for the next campaign. There is no merit at all in letting our best player get banged up in nothing games.

This. We must find out more about Lynch.

Lynch has been at the club for 5 years. They would know it all by now. If you want a pure tap ruckman then he may be your man as he did very well against Gawn. But he is a very ordinary mark and kick and doesn’t offer much else. He is definitely trade bait.

[PyreneesPie]

Anyone who thinks Buckley can coach should be watching what Stephenson is doing in the Carlton-North Melbourne game. And to argue that it was a salary cap issue when we still carried senior guys like Greenwood into the 2021 season on about the same money as Stephenson is laughable.

I need to correct you in that use of tense, there, MBFC. Happily for us (belatedly, of course, and after a wasted decade), it is "could" coach, not "can" coach.

Enough of the carping!!!

[PyreneesPie]

DP

[K]

...
So basically it’s a meaningless stat then. It means that anyone who touched the ball leading up to a goal or a point is credited with a score involvement.

Seems like it doesn’t it doris. Then again, I reckon quite a few stats are meaningless in conveying the quality of a player's game

Doris, yes, it's anyone in a continuous chain leading to a scoring shot.

Not meaningless, but it has to be taken in context.

For me, the important context is this:

The opposite is turnovers that lead to an opposition scoring shot.

Grundy is a huge outlier in this category. His turnovers kill Collingwood.

[K]

Scores involvement starts at the start of a “chain” of possession. The hard working backman that wins a contest and hits a target that then sees the ball move without dispossession to a score is credited.
...

Yep... but of course that is much harder than if you are not a defender. If you get your disposal in the back pocket, it has to go the length of the field for you to get a score involvement.

OTOH you make an error in the back pocket and it could easily lead to an oppo goal. That's why defenders will look bad if you look at score involvements and turnovers leading to an oppo scoring shot.

So literally the only Collingwood defender who looks very good when you look at those two stats is Darcy Moore. It helps that he takes intercept marks. It also helps that Moore is obviously Collingwood's best and most important player now.


But Grundy is not a defender, so he does not have the defenders' excuse... Only two defenders have more turnovers leading to an oppo scoring shot than Grundy. Grundy is the clanger king of Collingwood.

[Magpietothemax]

Anyone who thinks Buckley can coach should be watching what Stephenson is doing in the Carlton-North Melbourne game. And to argue that it was a salary cap issue when we still carried senior guys like Greenwood into the 2021 season on about the same money as Stephenson is laughable.

Yeah, this is just such a bitter reminder of what Bux has done. Getting rid of Stepho for nothing was the final calamity he brought to the club. Removing him as coach did not come early enough unfortunately .We might still have had Stepho on our list.
That is why all those who are so critical of Grundy should hold their words until we see how Grundy goes with a new coaching regime. Jadyn Stephenson is becoming the amazing player he most of us knew he could become if he had a competent, encouraging coach.

[K]

I'd assume ruck work can be improved with great coaching and a lot of hard work. At least I don't know why it would be impossible. That's why it's so sad that after so many years, it's still so bad.

Contested marking may be trickier.

But kicking is the hardest thing to improve. That's why clubs need to recruit good kicks. Eade reckoned you could improve kicking by only 2% a year.

[K]

BTW Lycett has been charged with striking. $2000 fine with early plea.

[K]

... Then again, I reckon quite a few stats are meaningless in conveying the quality of a player's game

PPie, you might find this amusing:

"Was [Deluca] really a moneyball player? An answer of sorts arrived via another breakthrough moneyball moment in May 2007, when a roomful of AFL coaches, recruiters and football department managers met to hear a presentation by three academics from RMIT's School of Economics, who'd also applied Beane's principles to footy.

They studied every AFL game between 2002 and 2006 to identify the statistical categories that most and least affected results. Some findings were unsurprising: an accurate long kick was worth almost one point towards a team's winning margin and turnovers worth -0.62.

The revelations at the other end of the scale prompted more muttering. For one, umpiring decisions were found to have almost no bearing on results. And there was a killer blow to Deluca's status as moneyballer No.1: ruck hit-outs were exposed as the most useless statistical category of all."

(R. Jackson, abc.net.au)