Post Match. Pies lose to Lions. All comments, please.

[Pies2016]

^ ^ ^

Spot on MC Mix.
These blow outs can happens when you aren’t very good in the first place and finals are out of reach. The players don’t even have a coach to play for.

The club has identified a rebuild is required and if some posters don’t have the patience for it, there’s always the option of finding something else to do for a year or two and then coming back when the pickings are better.

[Magpietothemax]

...
... Grundy? He had 9 hitouts to advantage in the first quarter... The problem for us at the moment is that he's hitting it down to blokes who have played <10games. Yeah he's getting paid big bucks but I (along with heaps of others here) were happy to pay that coin to a top-tier ruckman of the comp when the SA crew came knocking. It's on our mids and coaching staff to get them to 'gel' better imo, he's doing plenty right.
...

There are separate threads for this topic and related so I won't say much here...

But it's a total myth that it's Collingwood's mids' fault and not Grundy's.

And this hit out to advantage stat can be very misleading. Not much is needed to get HTA. And the HTA may have nothing to do with the ruckman. e.g. if team A's ruckman gets the hit out anywhere and team B's mid gives away a free to team A's, then it's automatically a hit out to advantage.

It's one of the most misunderstood stats in footy. (That's CD's fault for not making it clear to the clubs' coaches what it really means.)

Dear K, i just dont see what evidence you have to claim that it is Grundy's fault and not the mids.
Grundy is getting the first tap, but our mids don't f...ing know where to be in space and time.
How do you know it is Grndy's fault?
It is total lack of connection in the midfield, that has plagued us for so long. When Justin Longmuir was there in 2018, this issue subsided.
It is a coaching issue, totally.
I cant wait to see Grundy next year, when we have a coach who actually knows what he is doing.

[Magpietothemax]

Some of the comments in this thread are a $$%^%%$ joke, from so called 'supporters' of the club. Jesus Christ.
What did we all expect from the back end of this season, really? Of course we were going to be flogged at some point, it's a miracle it's taken this long to be fair. All we can watch for are glimmers of hope from our younger players, of which there have been plenty from where I'm sitting over the past 5-6 weeks.

Some of my favourites:

*Someone calling out Daicos? He's been one of our best all year, and someone to genuinely be excited about. Back from injury and still seemingly affected tonight.
*Saying Henry is lazy? Give me a $$%^%%$ spell.
*Whinging that Mason Cox isn't getting a game? He's 31 and won't be on our list next year, give it up. He's done some good things for us and his highs and lows get highlighted from his sheer size, but he's done for us now.
*Constantly laying into Grundy? He had 9 hitouts to advantage in the first quarter... The problem for us at the moment is that he's hitting it down to blokes who have played <10games. Yeah he's getting paid big bucks but I (along with heaps of others here) were happy to pay that coin to a top-tier ruckman of the comp when the SA crew came knocking. It's on our mids and coaching staff to get them to 'gel' better imo, he's doing plenty right.

Keep in mind the senior players that were missing from our 'best-22' tonight as well:
Pendles, Howey, Quaynor, Moore... A fair whack to our backline!


Anyway, I get the emotion and whatever, but reserve some judgement in 12-18 months once these kids get some games under their belt and show us what they're capable of.
I'm excited to see what Macrae, Poulter, Ginnivan, Henry, McCreery, Bianco and Reef etc can continue to do. I think that an extra year of development in them at AFL level will be huge, even considering we let some future picks go to get them in.

Great post. I agree totally, which makes me think i am on the right track.

[K]

...
... Grundy? He had 9 hitouts to advantage in the first quarter... The problem for us at the moment is that he's hitting it down to blokes who have played <10games. Yeah he's getting paid big bucks but I (along with heaps of others here) were happy to pay that coin to a top-tier ruckman of the comp when the SA crew came knocking. It's on our mids and coaching staff to get them to 'gel' better imo, he's doing plenty right.
...

There are separate threads for this topic and related so I won't say much here...

But it's a total myth that it's Collingwood's mids' fault and not Grundy's.

And this hit out to advantage stat can be very misleading. Not much is needed to get HTA. And the HTA may have nothing to do with the ruckman. e.g. if team A's ruckman gets the hit out anywhere and team B's mid gives away a free to team A's, then it's automatically a hit out to advantage.

It's one of the most misunderstood stats in footy. (That's CD's fault for not making it clear to the clubs' coaches what it really means.)

Dear K, i just dont see what evidence you have to claim that it is Grundy's fault and not the mids.
Grundy is getting the first tap, but our mids don't f...ing know where to be in space and time.
How do you know it is Grndy's fault?
It is total lack of connection in the midfield, that has plagued us for so long. When Justin Longmuir was there in 2018, this issue subsided.
It is a coaching issue, totally.
I cant wait to see Grundy next year, when we have a coach who actually knows what he is doing.

Mttm, I'll give the long answer in a suitable Grundy thread. But, briefly, if you watch ruck contests between any two teams, you'll see that in almost any ruck contest all of the mids from both sides are standing still. They're all static before and at the moment of the hit out. Even after the hit out, there is no time for them to move more than a step or so, unless the hit out is given a lot of air or hit to empty space. So it's all on the ruckmen to direct it. Connection is irrelevant when they don't move. It's like a bowler in cricket complaining about his fielders. Sure, he can complain if they drop a catch. He can't complain when he's too stupid to bowl to his field. Or if he's too weak to get the field he wants.

[Piesnchess]

Some of the comments in this thread are a $$%^%%$ joke, from so called 'supporters' of the club. Jesus Christ.
What did we all expect from the back end of this season, really? Of course we were going to be flogged at some point, it's a miracle it's taken this long to be fair. All we can watch for are glimmers of hope from our younger players, of which there have been plenty from where I'm sitting over the past 5-6 weeks.

Some of my favourites:

*Someone calling out Daicos? He's been one of our best all year, and someone to genuinely be excited about. Back from injury and still seemingly affected tonight.
*Saying Henry is lazy? Give me a $$%^%%$ spell.
*Whinging that Mason Cox isn't getting a game? He's 31 and won't be on our list next year, give it up. He's done some good things for us and his highs and lows get highlighted from his sheer size, but he's done for us now.
*Constantly laying into Grundy? He had 9 hitouts to advantage in the first quarter... The problem for us at the moment is that he's hitting it down to blokes who have played <10games. Yeah he's getting paid big bucks but I (along with heaps of others here) were happy to pay that coin to a top-tier ruckman of the comp when the SA crew came knocking. It's on our mids and coaching staff to get them to 'gel' better imo, he's doing plenty right.

Keep in mind the senior players that were missing from our 'best-22' tonight as well:
Pendles, Howey, Quaynor, Moore... A fair whack to our backline!


Anyway, I get the emotion and whatever, but reserve some judgement in 12-18 months once these kids get some games under their belt and show us what they're capable of.
I'm excited to see what Macrae, Poulter, Ginnivan, Henry, McCreery, Bianco and Reef etc can continue to do. I think that an extra year of development in them at AFL level will be huge, even considering we let some future picks go to get them in.

Great post. I agree totally, which makes me think i am on the right track.

Stands and applauds, well said, you said it all. Yes, some of the comments here from the usual glass half empty keyboard warriors are just utterly pathetic, jerks who have never ran onto at footy field themselves, no doubt. I agree with all you said, we look towards a better future, under a new Coach.

[Magpietothemax]

There are separate threads for this topic and related so I won't say much here...

But it's a total myth that it's Collingwood's mids' fault and not Grundy's.

And this hit out to advantage stat can be very misleading. Not much is needed to get HTA. And the HTA may have nothing to do with the ruckman. e.g. if team A's ruckman gets the hit out anywhere and team B's mid gives away a free to team A's, then it's automatically a hit out to advantage.

It's one of the most misunderstood stats in footy. (That's CD's fault for not making it clear to the clubs' coaches what it really means.)

Dear K, i just dont see what evidence you have to claim that it is Grundy's fault and not the mids.
Grundy is getting the first tap, but our mids don't f...ing know where to be in space and time.
How do you know it is Grndy's fault?
It is total lack of connection in the midfield, that has plagued us for so long. When Justin Longmuir was there in 2018, this issue subsided.
It is a coaching issue, totally.
I cant wait to see Grundy next year, when we have a coach who actually knows what he is doing.

Mttm, I'll give the long answer in a suitable Grundy thread. But, briefly, if you watch ruck contests between any two teams, you'll see that in almost any ruck contest all of the mids from both sides are standing still. They're all static before and at the moment of the hit out. Even after the hit out, there is no time for them to move more than a step or so, unless the hit out is given a lot of air or hit to empty space. So it's all on the ruckmen to direct it. Connection is irrelevant when they don't move. It's like a bowler in cricket complaining about his fielders. Sure, he can complain if they drop a catch. He can't complain when he's too stupid to bowl to his field. Or if he's too weak to get the field he wants.

So, if the mids are all static at the centre bounce, are you expecting that Grundy can direct the ball, correct to the nearest degree, so our mids can take possession?
Despite the supercomputers and GPS, the game is not that precise.
In tonights game, Grundy tapped the ball so we had equal chances or more to take possession, but failed to do so, due to:
a) skill errors
b) lack of strong bodied mids
I definitely think connection strands between Grundy and our mids are inferior, but I attribute that to coaching.

[qldmagpie67]

[K]

...
So, if the mids are all static at the centre bounce, are you expecting that Grundy can direct the ball, correct to the nearest degree, so our mids can take possession?
Despite the supercomputers and GPS, the game is not that precise.
In tonights game, Grundy tapped the ball so we had equal chances or more to take possession, but failed to do so, due to:
a) skill errors
b) lack of strong bodied mids
I definitely think connection strands between Grundy and our mids are inferior, but I attribute that to coaching.

Grundy cannot reliably direct the ball to within 45 degrees of his teammates. I suspect this is because he has absolutely no idea where his teammates are. If teammates or oppo move at ruck contests, he might have some sort of excuse. But they all stand like cricket fielders, so he has no excuse.

Grundy's hit outs are basically random. They give the oppo just as much chance as his teammates.

Again, I'll say more in the Grundy thread...

[Pies2016]

While we’re on the young blokes, I think MacRae has had a really solid debut year in the middle.
If you don’t like what he has offered up in his first year, then you’re not watching the game close enough. Once he develops the tank to run out an AFL game, he will be a genuine 10 year quality midfielder for us.

[Magpietothemax]

[Magpietothemax]

While we’re on the young blokes, I think MacRae has had a really solid debut year in the middle.
If you don’t like what he has offered up in his first year, then you’re not watching the game close enough. Once he develops the tank to run out an AFL game, he will be a genuine 10 year quality midfielder for us.

I agree P2016. I have been much impressed by what he has produced over the last few games.

[K]

...
Our much often praised defence was torn apart. So many here bang on about IQ and Noble but we had no real small quick defenders last night and it showed there real value.
...

Qld, ...
... You say that we all bang on about IQ and Noble, but hey, latest news, neither was selected to play tonight (noble only came on after Ruscoe was injured). ...

Mttm, I interpreted QM as meaning: folks criticise IQ and Noble too much, but tonight we were exposed without them.

[Magpietothemax]

...
Our much often praised defence was torn apart. So many here bang on about IQ and Noble but we had no real small quick defenders last night and it showed there real value.
...

Qld, ...
... You say that we all bang on about IQ and Noble, but hey, latest news, neither was selected to play tonight (noble only came on after Ruscoe was injured). ...

Mttm, I interpreted QM as meaning: folks criticise IQ and Noble too much, but tonight we were exposed without them.

Yeah, K, you are right. mybad.
Sorry Qld.

[inxs88]

Good summary Pep.
Definitely need a key forward. Lack thereof, no doubt, the legacy of Bux.
What has been exposed is that two mature bodies to run through the midfield is not enough.
We definitely need another big bodied mid for this team to provide the framework for the youngsters to develop.
My concern is: where is such a player coming from, given our screwed up capspace and consequent inability to recruit?
Defence tonight was a shambles, buit what do you expect when you have so many of your best defensive players out?

Okay, so quite a few variables manifested tonight, and that's not a bad thing.
We finally got kicked off the park - we knew it was coming; the world won't end.
No point in papering over the cracks anymore; just address them over the summer.

Firstly - we didn't have to hear Buckley's Bullshit Bulletin press conference, stating his favourite cop-out - "...we got nutted at the clearances..." Well, duh.

Secondly - the skill standard of the senior players - utterly PUTRID.
The majority of our turnovers, which were more to do with inept disposal, than direct pressure applied by Brisbane, often end up inside their F50 for a goal.
That is mostly on Buckley, however Harvey has been there long enough, and overseeing this hubris, evidently without objection. As a result, you can go too.
The next coach would want to make this the number one priority; as the fitness level isn't too far off a top eight side benchmark. But a full clean out is absolutely warranted.

Did I read in this thread that somebody suggested Fagan was a fraud coach?
Seriously?! What game were you watching? He has turned that sinking ship around in the space of a few seasons, and might get a nice shiny cup for his trouble in 6 weeks time.

As I've mentioned in the recruiting thread, we need hard bodies, if only short term, and cheap. Thus we will be relying on other sides either culling, or offloading extra cheap, due to list and cap restraints, during/prior to trade period.
There should be enough to choose from to fill some glaring gaps, even if listed as rookies.

So, main midfielder target: Josh Caddy. Richmond refuse to select him; I couldn't care f#cking less what the reasons are. If he's available - get him.

Short term forward: Josh Jenkins. Two failed seasons at Geelong.
In what world did he envisage himself getting selected ahead of Dunderklumpen and Sniper cameron? I'll be stunned if he is retained.
He is a decent mark, and acceptable shot at goal.
We won't see another T.Lynch or J.Cameron on the market for quite a while, so better take what we can get at this point in time.

We know the umpiring in the first half was just diabolical, the two dipshits and the dippy moll obviously fractured the psyche of our team, and broke us on Nicks.
All it did was gift them some goals, as did we; it simply delayed the inevitable.

And if WHE isn't already contracted going into 2022 - don't bother.
When the heat is on - he ain't interested. Another vanisher, like Varcoe was.

Essendon will have to beat us next week to make the eight; I say make them bleed and pay them back for Anzac Day shitfest we produced.

Hey Piedsy!! Loved your analysis.
Agree totally. Skill set debacle on Bux, but Harves went along with it. Other assistant coaches have stamped their mark, like Pyke. So, it is probably a reflection both of the authoritarian nature of Bux, and the lack of fight from Harves.
Agree. We desperately, above all else, need another big bodied mid for next year to provide a structure for our kids to develop within.
Whoever we can get, it has to be a big body who can bust through a few oppostiin bodies. Just get him, so the likes of McCrae, Rantall, Poulter can develop.
aS for Jenkins...not sure, as we have a few up our sleeve in Kelly, Beg, etc. i think the main thing is to just shore up the midfield. No forward can score while we can't compete for center clearances. Rather than Jenkins, get another big bodiied mid for cheap!

I think even bad judges like Lance Armstrong would rate and recognise Henry shall be an AFL player of fine repute. As for that old chestnut about delivery to Mason Cox, surely you've got to let that one go. It's okay to change your moniker by deed poll.

[winpies]

What really got me tonite were the fumbles.

Don't forget it gets very dewy and slippery at night there. That wouldn't help. Brisbane would be used to those conditions.