I love Singapore. The public transport system is brilliant. A bit expensive but clean. The airline and airport are the best in the world.
I saw a female soldier in Changi airport and she was a stunner. I spoke to her later at the coffee shop and she told me she was as model but had to do her yearly national service.
Coronavirus 4 - Kingdom of the Crystal Skull
Moderator: bbmods
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stui magpie
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My view is if 2 people need a ventilator and there's only 1 available, first choice goes to the person in the most need. It's highly likely that person will be the unvaccinated one.think positive wrote:If 2 people need a transplant the most viable gets it! If 2 patients needs a ventilator and a non vaxed by choice is one of them, then he/she should miss out.stui magpie wrote:Dan can mandate that for the state public service but not for the rest of the state. If he thinks he can, he can get 4Nik8ed
Just following up on the Singapore position of charging non vaccinated people for critical health care, I am totally opposed to that. That's not how we work here.
We have a no fault universal health care system, we don't discriminate based on life choices.
Alcoholic, smoker, junkie, lousy diet, anti vaxxer etc etc, doesn't matter, you show up to an ED you get treated, no charge. End of story.
It doesn't wash well with me to basically not offer treatment to someone in need based on choices, nor does continuing to exclude unvaccinated people from participating in life once we're as fully vaccinated as we're going to get
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down.
These are all ideological choices with unexposed costs, aren't they?
I can't help but wonder why we'd put $72,000 (the average cost of running a Victorian ICU bed for a day for 16 days, which is the median COVID ICU stay in Victorian hospitals) so readily into someone who refused to be vaccinated. Based on what we know about the efficacy of the vaccines in preventing serious illness, for every three-quarters of a million dollars spent on treating 10 unvaccinated people in hospital, all other things being equal the 10 of them have, between them, cost the community an unnecessary $650,000. That's because if they'd been vaccinated, 9 of them, on average, wouldn't have got seriously ill.
We must just require everyone to be vaccinated. It's not an option that should be open to people. If I were to say to you, eg, that I'd rather provide the unnecessary ICU $650,000 as a one-off grant of $65,000 each for 10 of the decent people out there who want to contribute to society, have got themselves fully vaccinated but for various reasons can't get jobs, how would that go down? Why is it that people who can't get work get $300 a week while people who could get vaccinated but won't get - as a direct consequence of their deliberate choice - $65,000 worth of in-kind services? Moreover, in circumstances where their presence in hospital prevents other people from getting in.
This is not a "slippery slope". It isn't some first step on the way to making people "take responsibility" for bad eating habits, smoking, obesity etc etc. It's just about saying to all the numpties out there that an element of the social contract is that they get vaccinated. We compel people to do all sorts of things that are appalling, risky and dehumanising. Why is compulsory vaccination such a no go?
I can't help but wonder why we'd put $72,000 (the average cost of running a Victorian ICU bed for a day for 16 days, which is the median COVID ICU stay in Victorian hospitals) so readily into someone who refused to be vaccinated. Based on what we know about the efficacy of the vaccines in preventing serious illness, for every three-quarters of a million dollars spent on treating 10 unvaccinated people in hospital, all other things being equal the 10 of them have, between them, cost the community an unnecessary $650,000. That's because if they'd been vaccinated, 9 of them, on average, wouldn't have got seriously ill.
We must just require everyone to be vaccinated. It's not an option that should be open to people. If I were to say to you, eg, that I'd rather provide the unnecessary ICU $650,000 as a one-off grant of $65,000 each for 10 of the decent people out there who want to contribute to society, have got themselves fully vaccinated but for various reasons can't get jobs, how would that go down? Why is it that people who can't get work get $300 a week while people who could get vaccinated but won't get - as a direct consequence of their deliberate choice - $65,000 worth of in-kind services? Moreover, in circumstances where their presence in hospital prevents other people from getting in.
This is not a "slippery slope". It isn't some first step on the way to making people "take responsibility" for bad eating habits, smoking, obesity etc etc. It's just about saying to all the numpties out there that an element of the social contract is that they get vaccinated. We compel people to do all sorts of things that are appalling, risky and dehumanising. Why is compulsory vaccination such a no go?
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think positive
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stui magpie
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With respect P4S I believe your views in this matter may be coloured by your personal vulnerabilities.
For mine it's not a social contract and it's not about cost.
I support vaccination, I support mandatory vaccinations in some occupations, even though I think the current net is too wide. I've happy to exclude the unvaccinated from some social activites but only as an interim measure.
When we have a very high percentage of the population fully vaccinated, and a number of the unvaccinated having already had and recovered from Covid, those who remain unvaccinated are posing the greatest risk to themselves, not others.
Yes, I could catch Covid from an unvaccinated person but the evidence suggests that, as I'm fully vaccinated, even while I might not have a pleasant experience, I'm very unlikely to die or suffer long term effects. I could also catch Covid from a fully vaccinated person.
It's easy to dismiss and disparage the anti vaxxers as "nuffies" but they are still people and I would not in any way shape or form condone witholding medical treatment from a person because they chose to not get vaccinated.
For mine it's not a social contract and it's not about cost.
I support vaccination, I support mandatory vaccinations in some occupations, even though I think the current net is too wide. I've happy to exclude the unvaccinated from some social activites but only as an interim measure.
When we have a very high percentage of the population fully vaccinated, and a number of the unvaccinated having already had and recovered from Covid, those who remain unvaccinated are posing the greatest risk to themselves, not others.
Yes, I could catch Covid from an unvaccinated person but the evidence suggests that, as I'm fully vaccinated, even while I might not have a pleasant experience, I'm very unlikely to die or suffer long term effects. I could also catch Covid from a fully vaccinated person.
It's easy to dismiss and disparage the anti vaxxers as "nuffies" but they are still people and I would not in any way shape or form condone witholding medical treatment from a person because they chose to not get vaccinated.
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down.
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stui magpie
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^
I agree.
If we just stick to the mandatory vaccination argument, if that was to happen, there needs to be negative consequences to enforce non compliance.
We're already going to have people excluded from employment, many unnecessarily in my view, and unable to participate in general society for potentially a far greater term than necessary.
NSW is talking about doing away with the "vaccination passport" once 95% are fully vaccinated, Dan has said he sees it still in place for much of 2022 regardless of vaccination rate. For what possible reason can that be justified?
I agree.
If we just stick to the mandatory vaccination argument, if that was to happen, there needs to be negative consequences to enforce non compliance.
We're already going to have people excluded from employment, many unnecessarily in my view, and unable to participate in general society for potentially a far greater term than necessary.
NSW is talking about doing away with the "vaccination passport" once 95% are fully vaccinated, Dan has said he sees it still in place for much of 2022 regardless of vaccination rate. For what possible reason can that be justified?
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down.
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think positive
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World travel for a start.
Socio economic. Who pays? Someone always does.
How much is the vaccine to the government? If you have to take a couple of days you get paid. Also for sick leave. And if your not working, well welfare takes care of you still. The vaccine costs all of us nothing upfront, I got the second at my doctor who charges for everything else. I’m all for ifyou don’t get vaccinated when you can, you don’t get welfare, period.
As for in a pandemic it’s everyone for themselves, well actually that’s the mirror image, the people thinking only of themselves are CHOOSING not to vaccinate.
It’s good enough for 95% of eligible people to get it, so that other 5 percent should have to roll up their sleeves to, for the good of what ever percentage CANNOT get it for health reasons.
Choice, we all have choices. They should also come with ramifications of those choices.
If 2 people need a ventilator with the same level of need, and one is vaccinated, then the vaccinated person should get it. Not because they are vaccinated but because survival is more viable.
Socio economic. Who pays? Someone always does.
How much is the vaccine to the government? If you have to take a couple of days you get paid. Also for sick leave. And if your not working, well welfare takes care of you still. The vaccine costs all of us nothing upfront, I got the second at my doctor who charges for everything else. I’m all for ifyou don’t get vaccinated when you can, you don’t get welfare, period.
As for in a pandemic it’s everyone for themselves, well actually that’s the mirror image, the people thinking only of themselves are CHOOSING not to vaccinate.
It’s good enough for 95% of eligible people to get it, so that other 5 percent should have to roll up their sleeves to, for the good of what ever percentage CANNOT get it for health reasons.
Choice, we all have choices. They should also come with ramifications of those choices.
If 2 people need a ventilator with the same level of need, and one is vaccinated, then the vaccinated person should get it. Not because they are vaccinated but because survival is more viable.
You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either!
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stui magpie
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Agree to disagree I guess.
I didn't get vaccinated to save anyone else, I got my first dose back in April as soon as I could, when there was bugger all Covid around. I just read the writing on the wall, had zero faith that Andrews and Co would be able to contain it and knew that getting vaccinated was the only way out of these lockdowns. Might as well get it done and out of the road.
Plus mum had just had her first shot of AZ and was getting all twitchy about the media reports of clots so the best way to shut her up was to get done myself.
Anyway, interesting that only 3 countries in the world have made vaccinations mandatory for all adults.
Indonesia
Micronesia and
Turkmenistan
https://www.reuters.com/business/health ... 021-08-16/
I didn't get vaccinated to save anyone else, I got my first dose back in April as soon as I could, when there was bugger all Covid around. I just read the writing on the wall, had zero faith that Andrews and Co would be able to contain it and knew that getting vaccinated was the only way out of these lockdowns. Might as well get it done and out of the road.
Plus mum had just had her first shot of AZ and was getting all twitchy about the media reports of clots so the best way to shut her up was to get done myself.
Anyway, interesting that only 3 countries in the world have made vaccinations mandatory for all adults.
Indonesia
Micronesia and
Turkmenistan
https://www.reuters.com/business/health ... 021-08-16/
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down.
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Dave The Man
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Dave The Man
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No one can 100% Contain Covid.stui magpie wrote:Agree to disagree I guess.
I didn't get vaccinated to save anyone else, I got my first dose back in April as soon as I could, when there was bugger all Covid around. I just read the writing on the wall, had zero faith that Andrews and Co would be able to contain it and knew that getting vaccinated was the only way out of these lockdowns. Might as well get it done and out of the road.
Plus mum had just had her first shot of AZ and was getting all twitchy about the media reports of clots so the best way to shut her up was to get done myself.
Anyway, interesting that only 3 countries in the world have made vaccinations mandatory for all adults.
Indonesia
Micronesia and
Turkmenistan
https://www.reuters.com/business/health ... 021-08-16/
Not just Dan
I am Da Man
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stui magpie
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I live in Victoria so what others could or couldn't do was irrelevant.
Anyway, every other state in Australia, except NSW this time around, has been able to contain small Delta outbreaks, so it's not accurate to say no one can contain it.
Anyway, every other state in Australia, except NSW this time around, has been able to contain small Delta outbreaks, so it's not accurate to say no one can contain it.
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down.
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stui magpie
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Dave The Man
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stui magpie
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Every adverse reaction is recorded and serious ones are investigated and the data is reported on the TGA website weekly.
It's pretty transparent, no vaccine is 100% safe but people are still a lot more likely to die of Covid than the vaccine
It's pretty transparent, no vaccine is 100% safe but people are still a lot more likely to die of Covid than the vaccine
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down.