Israeli–Palestinian conflict

[Magpietothemax]

Thanks for the additional context MTTM. In the interests of balance, here's a piece from Haaretz (probably the most even-handed Israeli news outlet, though still with something of a pro-Israeli slant) dealing with these claims:

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/202 ... ff7b550000

Perhaps the most blatant example of distorting a source is when Blumenthal uses an ellipsis to delete part of a quote - an omission that completely changes its meaning.

Translating into English, he quotes Ynet: “the pilots realized that there was tremendous difficulty in distinguishing within the occupied outposts and settlements who was a terrorist and who was a soldier or civilian … The rate of fire against the thousands of terrorists was tremendous at first, and only at a certain point did the pilots begin to slow down the attacks and carefully select the targets.”

The following words were omitted and replaced by the ellipsis: “A decision was made that the first mission of the combat helicopters and the armed drones was to stop the flow of terrorists and the murderous mob that poured into Israeli territory through the gaps in the fence.”

While the partial quote creates the impression that pilots fired at a “tremendous” rate when it was difficult to distinguish between terrorists and civilians, the full quote states that because of this difficulty, the pilots were assigned a different task: stopping terrorists flowing in from Gaza. And there was no ambiguity in this task.

As of now, there are two known events where Israeli civilians were apparently killed due to Israeli fire. The first was during the hostage situation at Kibbutz Be’eri, where 12 hostages were being held by 40 Hamas terrorists. In the heavy crossfire between Israeli forces and the kidnappers, 10 hostages died. According to the testimony of the two Israeli survivors, at least some of them died as a result of Israeli fire. The second is the incident in which a helicopter may have fired on Israelis who were fleeing the Nova trance festival in Re’im.

Blumenthal refers to the Be’eri event four times throughout his article, to create the impression that there were more such events. It is important to note: These are two tragic, isolated incidents regarding the fate of a handful of the 1,200 Israelis who died that day. The deniers of the massacre create the impression that the testimony of Yasmin Porat, a survivor of the Be’eri event who arrived there after escaping the Nova massacre, is “shocking news” and was hidden by Israel. In fact, Porat was interviewed by several major media outlets and her story is well-known. There is no “secret cover up” going on.

Well actually, there is a massive secret cover up going on...as the NY times article has demonstrated, the Israeli government is actually responsible for the Hamas massacre, because it allowed it to happen. So I give Ha'aretz zero credibilty on this question

[pietillidie]

^How does that saying go? Never assume conspiracy until you've ruled out incompetence. Or in this case, incompetence and Nutteryahoo's malignant narcissism.

That said, you do wonder why they never informed the US. Supporting a more conspiratorial take, here's some of the NY Times investigation:

Then, in July, just three months before the attacks, a veteran analyst with Unit 8200, Israel’s signals intelligence agency, warned that Hamas had conducted an intense, daylong training exercise that appeared similar to what was outlined in the blueprint.

But a colonel in the Gaza division brushed off her concerns, according to encrypted emails viewed by The Times.

“I utterly refute that the scenario is imaginary,” the analyst wrote in the email exchanges. The Hamas training exercise, she said, fully matched “the content of Jericho Wall.”

“It is a plan designed to start a war,” she added. “It’s not just a raid on a village.”

Officials privately concede that, had the military taken these warnings seriously and redirected significant reinforcements to the south, where Hamas attacked, Israel could have blunted the attacks or possibly even prevented them.

The Israeli military and the Israeli Security Agency, which is in charge of counterterrorism in Gaza, declined to comment.

Officials would not say how they obtained the Jericho Wall document, but it was among several versions of attack plans collected over the years. A 2016 Defense Ministry memorandum viewed by The Times, for example, says, “Hamas intends to move the next confrontation into Israeli territory.”

Such an attack would most likely involve hostage-taking and “occupying an Israeli community (and perhaps even a number of communities),” the memo reads.

The Jericho Wall document, named for the ancient fortifications in the modern-day West Bank, was even more explicit. It detailed rocket attacks to distract Israeli soldiers and send them hurrying into bunkers, and drones to disable the elaborate security measures along the border fence separating Israel and Gaza.

Much more best read in full >>

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/30/worl ... gence.html

And: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/02/worl ... gence.html

[Magpietothemax]

^How does that saying go? Never assume conspiracy until you've ruled out incompetence. Or in this case, incompetence and Nutteryahoo's malignant narcissism.

That said, you do wonder why they never informed the US.

There is no doubt that they did inform the US. It is simply not credible to think that the CIA would not have been totally aware of the intelligence that the Israeli government had in the Jericho document and its decision to let it happen. The Israeli and US intelligence agencies work hand in glove. Moreover, Netahanyu would have to be have guaranteed unconditional US support for his planned genocide against the Palestnians before going ahead. Finally, the proof of the US government's knowledge is the incredible alacrity with which it was able to get an aircraft carrier to sit off the Gaza coast (24 hours) and deploy forces to the region.
It is more than likely also that European intelligence agencies were also in the know. But without doubt the US government was informed.
The US government has ample practice in turning a blind eye to warnings and feigning total shock when a catastrophe conveniently occurs (Sep 11)

[pietillidie]

^That's one of your gap-filling go-tos. But you're too quick to fill gaps with your desired answers. The problem is, no one has a tally of all the times you've been wrong becauseyou'renot motivatedto keep such a tally.

Where other people suspect things, but hold off being definitive, you latch onto them and turn mole hills in mountains. Can you not see that's what you do? Do you not know that's how the driven brain works for everyone including yourself?

There is also the history of Israel keeping things from the US and the far more likely explanation of Nutteryahoo being over-confident or being conned by dissociative grandeur, and not taking warnings seriously. He could still have created the monster but overrated his own control of the situation, not to mention malignant narcississts always surrround themselves with incompetent idiots they think they can control.

It is very silly to rule out other very common explanations, including vanilla organisational failure and incompetence, ahead of definitive evidence. The idea that organisations convey information well all the time, is just wrong. All kinds of batty organisational mistakes and weirdo managers can get in the way.

"But they're the CIA, they know everything and never make mistakes" is just as naive as "But they're the CIA, they would never harm the nation".

Nothing would surprise me, and we know Nutteryahoo was courting and using Hamas, but that doesn't mean we know exactly how things played out.

[Magpietothemax]

^That's one of your gap-filling go-tos. But you're too quick to fill gaps with your desired answers. The problem is, no one has a tally of all the times you've been wrong becauseyou'renot motivatedto keep such a tally.

Where other people suspect things, but hold off being definitive, you latch onto them and turn mole hills in mountains. Can you not see that's what you do? Do you not know that's how the driven brain works for everyone including yourself?

There is also the history of Israel keeping things from the US and the far more likely explanation of Nutteryahoo being over-confident or being conned by dissociative grandeur, and not taking warnings seriously. He could still have created the monster but overrated his own control of the situation, not to mention malignant narcississts always surrround themselves with incompetent idiots they think they can control.

It is very silly to rule out other very common explanations, including vanilla organisational failure and incompetence, ahead of definitive evidence. The idea that organisations convey information well all the time, is just wrong. All kinds of batty organisational mistakes and weirdo managers can get in the way.

"But they're the CIA, they know everything and never make mistakes" is just as naive as "But they're the CIA, they would never harm the nation".

Nothing would surprise me, and we know Nutteryahoo was courting and using Hamas, but that doesn't mean we know exactly how things played out.

It is very silly to believe that organisational failure and incompetence is the reason.
Intelligence agencies are not run by incompetent fools. They are run by highly trained individuals who analyse to infinite depth the data they receive.
This is not Keystone Cops nor Comedy Capers.
If nothing would surprise you, why then do you reject out of hand what I said?

[LaurieHolden]

Call it skirting, evading, or to obfuscate. All terms to describe politicians stepping around the question of Israel's ongoing retaliation and loss of civilian life.
Deputy PM, Richard Marles offered a masterclass this morning, tripping over his words while he dodged questions on the matter.

This is what I'm calling the 'gelded period', one where our elected officials don't have the balls to make a clear statement against or calling out what is playing out in front of us.

Across the globe, we're certainly in a period of getting the leadership we deserve as opposed to leadership we need.

[LaurieHolden]

Q&A: Noam Chomsky on Palestine, Israel and the state of the world

The renowned US academic spoke to Al Jazeera about his career and positions he regrets not taking in the past.

https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2023 ... -the-world [/i]

[David]

Great interview, thanks Laurie. Astonishing to think he's old enough to have been an adult when Israel was founded and actually went there in the early years. Not many people out there nowadays who can say they protested the Vietnam War in the early 1960s but that they should have done so earlier!

[David]

[Magpietothemax]

Israel is planning to pump seawater into Hamas' underground tunnels to prevent Hamas forces from hiding under the ground. Five large pumps have already been installed. This plan is being entertained despite the totally unknown consequences, including: Poisoning the scarce natural sources of underground water in Gaza, damaging sewage and water infrastructre, undermining buildings to the point of collapse, contaminating the soil...
That such a plan can even be evisaged indicates the aims of the israeli government: to render Gaza a barren, uninhabitable wilderness, where those who survive the military holocaust will either have to find a way to leave, or will simply die of disease/starvation/dehydration.

[LaurieHolden]

"Israel will Face Destruction if this Continues"-Col. Macgregor warns of armageddon on Tucker Carlsson Show.

While it did come from a FOX source, please take time to listen to this interview. A bit to unpack and a sobering account of where this is heading if Israel is left to dictate terms -

https://youtu.be/zrazXS2f34Y?si=mT3G2eJgA56HZEKiq

He did start to drift to peddling an agenda while stating Hezbollah are in Mexico. I'll have to do some digging on this one, it sounded stretched, to say the least. He's clearly banging the drum to garner support to promote US border policy. But the broader content made me pause for thought and do some further reading to find some dissertation on the points he raised.

[David]

[pietillidie]

It seems the Hamas policy and Qatari funding was widely known and even overseen by the UN. So, the failure was likely one of not taking the intelligence warnings seriously. It wasn't secret at all, let alone secret enough to be a conspiracy.

US thinking throughout is still an open question, though. The fact is, Israel gets what it wants unquestioningly (hence the Gaza wreckage), while much like 9/11 the US can still be caught by surprise and over-estimate its ability to both receive and act on intelligence, hence not expecting such a successful attack.

So, it's still a playing with fire scenario to my mind, with the US leaving too much in Israel's hands, though I know what MtotheM will think. The open 'conspiracy' and the bit the left gets absolutely right is the pandering to Israel for business and political purposes at the expense of Palestinians and whoever else, much as the US panders to Saudi Arabia and other assorted scumbags. But again, this is known policy and process, not conspiracy.

Unfortunately, it is unlikely to be addressed once more because scumbag Trump will use it to his advantage, while both sides of the aisle support it, and cries of antisemitism surround the topic. The best we can hope for is that it gets hung around Nutteryahoo's neck; if no one has been held accountable for the far bigger and far more expensive carastrophe of Iraq, don't expect accountability to start here.

Major article in the NYT:

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/10/worl ... hamas.html

[Magpietothemax]

US government was the only government to veto UN Security Council resolution for ceasefire in Gaza. Nothing could be clearer: the US government is an active protagonist in this war. While blocking any possiblity of a ceasefire, the Biden government has just announced that it will provide $100 million in tank rounds to the IDF, without even bothering with Congressional approval.

The US Ambassador to the UN, Robert Wood, declared that "Israel has the right to defend itself against terrorism". In actual fact, no such right exists in international law. The right to self-defence can only be invoked if the threat emanates from another nation state. Gaza is a territory under belligerant occupation by Israel, therefore Israel cannot legally invoke "self-defence" for any military action in Gaza. The argument used by Wood means that the US government fully endorses the illegal occupation of Gaza and the West Bank, and also agrees with Israel having the right to ethnically cleanse and massacre all those who resist this occupation.

Every weapon, every weapon system, used by the IDF, has been supplied and continues to be supplied, by the US government.
The US government could turn this war off in one instant by declaring that it will no longer supply anything to the IDF.
To claim that the US government was not fully apprised of Israel's plans for genocide in Gaza is laughable.
The Netahanyu government could never have embarked on such a course of action, in total disregard for all norms of international law, had it not been fully assured at the start that the US government would back it to the hilt, politically and militarily.


Biden is just as culpable as Netahanyu. They are partners in genocide.

[stui magpie]

^

Just curious, what colour is the sky on the planet you come from?