Israeli–Palestinian conflict

[Magpietothemax]

^

Exactly. It's easy to forget what started all of this, this time. Hamas invaded civilian areas, brutally raping, murdering and mutiliating innocent men, women and children and taking others as hostages.

Does that justify the current situation from Israel? No, but trying to airbrush it out of existence to somehow paint Hamas as innocent victims of the IDF is sick.

It started in 1948, not on October 7 2023.

[Magpietothemax]

"Some of" is probably more accurate than "much of". There are propagandists out there currently trying to suggest that most of the victims of October 7 were killed by the IDF, and I think we need to exercise caution in our own language lest we bolster those deceitful narratives.

An independent enquiry would establish the correct proportions of how many the IDF killed and how many Hamas killed. Naturally, Israel completely opposes such an enquiry.
I agree that accuracy is essential when recounting events because the slightest inaccuracy gives ammunition to those who wish to distort the truth.
The point is though that the US and Israel are the greatest impediments to establishing any degree of accuracy because they oppose all the international institutions which are not directly and fully controlled by the US government. (The ICC for example).
Whatever the exact proportions of Israeli citizens killed by Hamas or killed by the IDF, basic facts thatt we do know are:
a) The Israeli government was forewarned about exactly such an attack, down to the very last detail, and on the day that it happened crucial Israeli security forces had been stood down.
b) Even if Hamas had killed all 1200 Israeli citizens who died, this could not justify already at least 25 000 Palestinian citizens massacred by the IDF in Gaza
c) The Israeli government has not the slightest concern for the hostages now remaining in Gaza. Several of these have already been killed by the Israeli bombardment, and now the Israeli govenment is flooding the Hamas tunnels, threatening hostages held there with drowning.

[David]

[stui magpie]

^

Exactly. It's easy to forget what started all of this, this time. Hamas invaded civilian areas, brutally raping, murdering and mutiliating innocent men, women and children and taking others as hostages.

Does that justify the current situation from Israel? No, but trying to airbrush it out of existence to somehow paint Hamas as innocent victims of the IDF is sick.

It started in 1948, not on October 7 2023.

I said, started all this, THIS TIME.

[stui magpie]

Whatever the exact proportions of Israeli citizens killed by Hamas or killed by the IDF, basic facts thatt we do know are:
a) The Israeli government was forewarned about exactly such an attack, down to the very last detail, and on the day that it happened crucial Israeli security forces had been stood down.

And how exactly do we "know" this for a "fact"?

I've read how Hamas planned this 12 months out and had a very detailed plan on how to completely blind side the Israeli intelligence.

[Magpietothemax]

Whatever the exact proportions of Israeli citizens killed by Hamas or killed by the IDF, basic facts thatt we do know are:
a) The Israeli government was forewarned about exactly such an attack, down to the very last detail, and on the day that it happened crucial Israeli security forces had been stood down.

And how exactly do we "know" this for a "fact"?

I've read how Hamas planned this 12 months out and had a very detailed plan on how to completely blind side the Israeli intelligence.

I have posted on this topic in previous posts. If you are genuine in finding out the evidence that the Israeli government knew down to the last detail the plan that Hamas executed on October 7, refer to my posts and the links I added.
Here is the starting point:
https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2023/1 ... x-d02.html

[stui magpie]

^

That link is rubbish, slanted opinion overlaid on some facts to draw the conclusions they want.

I can't read the actual article in the NY Times as it's paywalled, but here's a better summary by CNN.

https://edition.cnn.com/2023/12/01/midd ... index.html

Note that the document that Israeli Intelligence got and ignored didn't have a date for the attack.

Hamas had spent 12-24 months planning this, using old tech to ensure the intelligence agencies didn't pick it up. They adopted a more conciliatory public face deliberately. https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-ea ... rce%20said.

Intelligence gathering relies on multiple sources of information and building a picture.

The 40 page plan was inconsistent with all the intel they had about Hamas capability and intent. The public training exercises was also deliberate subterfuge, designed to off foot the intelligence services.

Drawing the conclusion from this information that the Israeli Government knew exactly what was going to happen, when and where and that they deliberately allowed it to happen, is a ludicrous opinion, not a fact.

[LaurieHolden]

I think you'll find you're both wrong. Please find a link to the definitive origins of the conflict -

https://youtu.be/4WznZbYxwmY?si=Tglj05i6V9Qofs1H

[What'sinaname]

[Magpietothemax]

IDF has killed 5,000 Hamas terrorists out of 20,000 odd deaths. That's far from indiscriminate slaughter. In fact, give Hamas uses innocents as a human shield, a 3:1 ratio would suggest IDF is trying to systematically kill Hamas, not Palestinians.

Your figures are plainly false, and I might add, are fully in line with Zionist propaganda.

The IDF has killed, as of 1 week ago, 20 000 people in Gaza, of whom
15 000 are women and children. Therefore, this makes up 5 000 who were men. To claim that every single man killed was a Hamas militant is just absurd, and would be laughable if we were not referring to such tragic events.
Israel is carrying out a deliberate war against women and children.
As for human shields, it is the IDF that uses human shields:
https://x.com/AlnaouqA/status/1723034599025004920?s=20

[Magpietothemax]

^

Exactly. It's easy to forget what started all of this, this time. Hamas invaded civilian areas, brutally raping, murdering and mutiliating innocent men, women and children and taking others as hostages.

Does that justify the current situation from Israel? No, but trying to airbrush it out of existence to somehow paint Hamas as innocent victims of the IDF is sick.

It started in 1948, not on October 7 2023.

I said, started all this, THIS TIME.

My comment remains correct. It started in 1948, no qualification.

[slangman]

^

Exactly. It's easy to forget what started all of this, this time. Hamas invaded civilian areas, brutally raping, murdering and mutiliating innocent men, women and children and taking others as hostages.

Does that justify the current situation from Israel? No, but trying to airbrush it out of existence to somehow paint Hamas as innocent victims of the IDF is sick.

It started in 1948, not on October 7 2023.

In just over a weeks time billions of people around the world will be celebrating the birth of a Jewish guy born 2023 years ago in Bethlehem (in the West Bank).
I’m not sure why the constant references to 1948.

[Magpietothemax]

^

That link is rubbish, slanted opinion overlaid on some facts to draw the conclusions they want.

I can't read the actual article in the NY Times as it's paywalled, but here's a better summary by CNN.

https://edition.cnn.com/2023/12/01/midd ... index.html

Note that the document that Israeli Intelligence got and ignored didn't have a date for the attack.

Hamas had spent 12-24 months planning this, using old tech to ensure the intelligence agencies didn't pick it up. They adopted a more conciliatory public face deliberately. https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-ea ... rce%20said.

Intelligence gathering relies on multiple sources of information and building a picture.

The 40 page plan was inconsistent with all the intel they had about Hamas capability and intent. The public training exercises was also deliberate subterfuge, designed to off foot the intelligence services.

Drawing the conclusion from this information that the Israeli Government knew exactly what was going to happen, when and where and that they deliberately allowed it to happen, is a ludicrous opinion, not a fact.

It is very simple Stui. You can decide to to believe the US government and its servile media, who are partners in genocide with the fascist Netahanyu regime, or you can decide to believe an analysis which takes into account the nature of imperialist foreign policy and the contemporary global crisis of capitalist society.
The choice is yours.
You can believe that the Israeli government was caught unaware by the Hamas attack, because the NY Times and CNN tell you so. That's what Biden and the Israeli government want you to fundamentally believe.
Or you can decide to question the corporate media, and instead consider an alternative analysis of events which scientifically reflects reality because it draws out the class interests behind the known actions and the propaganda.
Everyone has a choice.

[Magpietothemax]

^

Exactly. It's easy to forget what started all of this, this time. Hamas invaded civilian areas, brutally raping, murdering and mutiliating innocent men, women and children and taking others as hostages.

Does that justify the current situation from Israel? No, but trying to airbrush it out of existence to somehow paint Hamas as innocent victims of the IDF is sick.

It started in 1948, not on October 7 2023.

In just over a weeks time billions of people around the world will be celebrating the birth of a Jewish guy born 2023 years ago in Bethlehem (in the West Bank).
I’m not sure why the constant references to 1948.

All i can say to this comment is: educate yourself on modern history.

[David]