Oh yes, can we please replace Hine with the Saints recruiting team, or North or the Crows or even better Essendon or any of those of those other wonderful talent spotters who haven’t experienced anything close to success in the last 15 years. Hine and his team have been integral in securing two flags in the last 13 years. If you want a 10 year KPF, the easiest way to do it is to just lose games every week and set yourself up for a top 10 draft pick. Unfortunately at Collingwood, we tend to win games and that’s counter productive to drafting the best tall juniors in the country.
The Blues have been rubbish for twenty years and landed both McKay and Curnow on the back of it and how has that worked out for them. Strong lists win you flags, not just tall forwards.
Time to move on from all the fault finding and just enjoy being the reigning premiers. It’s much more fun than having a calendar clock that’s dedicated to telling supporters how many days it’s been since they won their last final. Apologies for going off topic.
Trade Targets ~ Free Agency & MSD player discussion
Moderator: bbmods
Can we get Rory Lobb in the mid season draft. We can arrange for Bulldogs to 'sack' him and voila.The Black and White Lion wrote:Fair to say we aren’t trading for a KPF in the near future either. No draft capital for this year and I’m fed up with the constant trading of first and second round draft picks anyway. Our only options for a new KPF this year and probably next year are Free Agency or a salary dump from WB, GC or GWS.
They certainly do not want him, and will be moving him on at years end
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LaurieHolden
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Clearly that Premiership list they put together was just a fluke. And off the back of all of those top 10 picks key position picks we've wasted over the past decade. Give me a break.Raw Hammer wrote:Let's be honest, our recruiting staff, led by Derek Hine, couldn't spot/draft tall timber talent if it bit them on the proverbial.
It has been an ongoing disgrace how bereft of talent our recruiters have left us in the KPP stakes outside of tall father-son selections the past 15 years.
"The Club's not Jock, Ted and Gerry" (& Eddie)
2023 AFL Premiers
2023 AFL Premiers
Anyone with half a brain would realize that recruitment of gun KPF is a hard task unless you have a pick in the first 5 picks at National Draft or a blessed with a strong Academy to stock the talented youngsters coming through or a talented father/son pick.
If it were easy we would have done it!
Collingwood has secured McStay in the past 2 years and have a wonderfully consistent KPF in Brody Mihocek who we tripped over in the list of rejects back in 2017 rookie draft. That was good enough to win us a Premiership.
I'm still hopeful that the basketball hopeful, Alex Condon, will turn his back on a potential lucrative career in the American NBL to join Collingwood later this year as a ready made replacement for Mason Cox. Condon would be a great chance to add to Collingwood's key position listed players capable of being a star at AFL level.
If it were easy we would have done it!
Collingwood has secured McStay in the past 2 years and have a wonderfully consistent KPF in Brody Mihocek who we tripped over in the list of rejects back in 2017 rookie draft. That was good enough to win us a Premiership.
I'm still hopeful that the basketball hopeful, Alex Condon, will turn his back on a potential lucrative career in the American NBL to join Collingwood later this year as a ready made replacement for Mason Cox. Condon would be a great chance to add to Collingwood's key position listed players capable of being a star at AFL level.
Collingwood Domination. Envy of the Nation!
^^^
I would also add most quality mature age KPFs are on very big money, so the question remains, who wouldn’t we have on our list if that KPF was plying his craft at Collingwood. DeGoey ? J Daicos ? Hill ? Mitchell ?
While Carlton are celebrating Coleman medallist’s, we’re celebrating a premiership. No brainer, for mine.
I would also add most quality mature age KPFs are on very big money, so the question remains, who wouldn’t we have on our list if that KPF was plying his craft at Collingwood. DeGoey ? J Daicos ? Hill ? Mitchell ?
While Carlton are celebrating Coleman medallist’s, we’re celebrating a premiership. No brainer, for mine.
Gary Player “ the harder I practice, the luckier I get “
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piedys
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Dear Coach LaurieLaurieHolden wrote:Clearly that Premiership list they put together was just a fluke. And off the back of all of those top 10 picks key position picks we've wasted over the past decade. Give me a break.Raw Hammer wrote:Let's be honest, our recruiting staff, led by Derek Hine, couldn't spot/draft tall timber talent if it bit them on the proverbial.
It has been an ongoing disgrace how bereft of talent our recruiters have left us in the KPP stakes outside of tall father-son selections the past 15 years.
One could argue the 2014 draft that secured us Moore [who could have chosen Melbourne], DeGoey and Crisp [thanks to Beams' departure] and Maynard [thankfully], was the only one that produced any bonafide talent, since 2008.
Grundy's departure invalidated 2012 crop, Broomhead and Kennedy.
The 2013 fiasco; do I need to name names? Utter sabotage.
Sold the farm for Treloar in 2015 with 2 x first rounders; was it worth it?
2016 secured us Josh Daicos [by default], and the maligned Brown brothers soon after.
2017 netted us Stephenson [ahead of Naughton], which almost paid off in 2018. Of course it ended badly though, with the rot setting in by June 2019 and his suspension, and whatever else went on during 2020 lockdown.
Bears paid us back in spades in 2018 returning a buyer-beware out-of-warranty Beams to us; that's 2018 & 2019 pissed against the wall.
In 2020, Oliver handbag Henry appeared a solid selection; which he was.
He is yet to play in a final; perhaps his luck might change in 2024.
The selection of McCrae ahead of Max Holmes, will be the one that ultimately kills our ageing midfield though.
By 2021, the Nick Daicos no-brainer was the one that delivered the cup in 2023.
The rest of the team comprised academy, trade-ins and poachings from other clubs, who absolutely bought into Fly's ethics and played above themselves, to the point I doubt they actually have minimal improvement left in their abilities at AFL level.
Again, the club has elected to mortgage the farm in 2023 & 2024, with the Schultz trade. You'd hope by season's end we might begin to see some dividends from the arrangement. Freo may yet have the last laugh in 2024.
Ironically, Whorethorn's 2013-2015 flag list had almost identical parrellels to ours, as far as the blend of draft picks and poachings stand, that delivered silverware; just be thankful they were too stupid to take Pendles in 2005.
Vale Nathan Murphy's career; and Moore's right-hand-man.
The lines are open here peeps, let's kick this around by all means, but seriously - ENOUGH with the deluded bullshit that our drafting itself, save for the 2014 crop and Naicos, have been even remotely fruitful since 2008.
M I L L A N E 4 2 forever
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piedys
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Cadman would be an awesome get; playboy centrefold delusional though, i suspect.warburton lad wrote:Cadman and Rowell..... Yes Please!!
Can't see Rowell leaving GCS without Anderson, nor do I think Hardwick will tolerate it anyways.
So much for Smith being buddy-buddy with Naicos then...warburton lad wrote:If Smith goes to Geelong, then Holmes would certainly be on our radar..
Again - I will ask the question: do these arsewipes at Kardinia Park actually have a salary cap to contend with?!
We can secure Holmes with a junk pick, same sort of shit they dredged up for Henry during 2022 trade period. Even then, it's just fixing Hine's shit from previous drafts...
M I L L A N E 4 2 forever
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LaurieHolden
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A considered reply Dyso. I'm amazed we've been able to compete as well as we have, let alone winning #16 given that draft / trade pedigree. I view Hine has done a remarkable job with the hand he's been dealt.
The draft is chook lotto at the best of times.
Trusting Wrighty has done the work over the past 2 years to have some ready names to fill some list holes before he clears out his desk on return from his sabbatical.
Like Murphy, I think we know Wrighty is unlikely to request a carpark at the 'whatever we're calling it now' Centre in 2025. I reckon he'll spend more time on the Spirt of Tasmania than Tram 70 to our current headquarters.
Speaking of KPF - Drafted: Round 1, Pick #9 2015 National Draft by Melbourne Demons Height: 197cm Weight: 99kg. Yes please you say?
Sam Weideman - Melbourne > Essendon. Into his 9th season and can't crack a game for Essendon in 2024. Goalless again in R3 VFL over the weekend after 2 goals in R2 the week prior and 1 behind in R1.
The draft is chook lotto at the best of times.
Trusting Wrighty has done the work over the past 2 years to have some ready names to fill some list holes before he clears out his desk on return from his sabbatical.
Like Murphy, I think we know Wrighty is unlikely to request a carpark at the 'whatever we're calling it now' Centre in 2025. I reckon he'll spend more time on the Spirt of Tasmania than Tram 70 to our current headquarters.
Bears paid us back in spades in 2018 returning a buyer-beware out-of-warranty Beams to us; that's 2018 & 2019 pissed against the wall.
Speaking of KPF - Drafted: Round 1, Pick #9 2015 National Draft by Melbourne Demons Height: 197cm Weight: 99kg. Yes please you say?
Sam Weideman - Melbourne > Essendon. Into his 9th season and can't crack a game for Essendon in 2024. Goalless again in R3 VFL over the weekend after 2 goals in R2 the week prior and 1 behind in R1.
Last edited by LaurieHolden on Tue Apr 16, 2024 4:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.
"The Club's not Jock, Ted and Gerry" (& Eddie)
2023 AFL Premiers
2023 AFL Premiers
The problem here is we talk about Hine as being the only one with skeletons in the closet. Recruiting never has and never will be an exact science. You recruit boys and then try to anticipate who they will be as both elite football players and men. Every club has their hits and misses but if flags are what we measure success by ( 2 in 14 years ) then Hine certainly has a lot less skeletons than about 14 or 15 other clubs recruiting depts.
And who do you replace him with ? It’s hardly a role to be filled by advertising on Seek. The chances of anyone having more than the I P he has stored away or at his fingertips, are close to zero.
In recent times, he nailed the Henry selection at # 17 and Murphy was a fine pick in the thirties. Hardly his fault that Henry came from the Falcons and Murphy chose to put his health before footy. Stephenson and Ginnivan both kicked forty goals in their first complete seasons and are no longer at the club for whatever reasons. Is that Hines fault ?
And finally, people need to realise Hine has very little do with those recycled player trades. There’s enough footage and info and character references on these established players without Hine being dragged away from his job of watching junior footy games all over the countryside every weekend.
Seriously, you’d think we hadn’t won a final in the last 20 years with all the Hine pile on.
And who do you replace him with ? It’s hardly a role to be filled by advertising on Seek. The chances of anyone having more than the I P he has stored away or at his fingertips, are close to zero.
In recent times, he nailed the Henry selection at # 17 and Murphy was a fine pick in the thirties. Hardly his fault that Henry came from the Falcons and Murphy chose to put his health before footy. Stephenson and Ginnivan both kicked forty goals in their first complete seasons and are no longer at the club for whatever reasons. Is that Hines fault ?
And finally, people need to realise Hine has very little do with those recycled player trades. There’s enough footage and info and character references on these established players without Hine being dragged away from his job of watching junior footy games all over the countryside every weekend.
Seriously, you’d think we hadn’t won a final in the last 20 years with all the Hine pile on.
Last edited by Pies2016 on Tue Apr 16, 2024 6:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Jezza
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^ I largely agree that the criticism of Hine is overblown. Further adding to your post, we're one of four clubs (the others being Hawthorn, Geelong and Richmond) who have won multiple flags since 2007 so we must be doing something right to be producing those results.
Hine isn't without his faults, but I've said elsewhere that his biggest strength was always identifying good young talent rather than being a list manager. The club has done a good job to utilize his biggest strength which is talent identification rather than burdening him with overall list management which entails everything from drafting, trading, salary cap management etc. I know he was list manager for a few years there before Ned Guy took over.
I'll admit one time a few years back in a moment of anger I posted that he had been "living off" his draft selection of Pendles from 2005 and he should be moved on or demoted by the club, so not my finest hour by any stretch
Hine isn't without his faults, but I've said elsewhere that his biggest strength was always identifying good young talent rather than being a list manager. The club has done a good job to utilize his biggest strength which is talent identification rather than burdening him with overall list management which entails everything from drafting, trading, salary cap management etc. I know he was list manager for a few years there before Ned Guy took over.
I'll admit one time a few years back in a moment of anger I posted that he had been "living off" his draft selection of Pendles from 2005 and he should be moved on or demoted by the club, so not my finest hour by any stretch
| 1902 | 1903 | 1910 | 1917 | 1919 | 1927 | 1928 | 1929 | 1930 | 1935 | 1936 | 1953 | 1958 | 1990 | 2010 | 2023 | Let’s assume as best we can that Hine has been in charge of identifying and recruiting young talent for the last 20 years ( as opposed to trading for recycled players). So following on, let’s take it that premierships are the ultimate determinate of a clubs success.
In last twenty years the premiership tally reads like this -
Hawks and Cats - four flags each
Tigers 3 flags
Pies, Swans and Eagles - two flags each.
In that time, only two grand finals have been decided by less than a goal, with the Eagles being the beneficiary of both of them, while the Pies and Swans were both on the wrong end of one each.
I try to avoid the “ if your uncle was your aunt “ analogies but if for a very small amount of luck going the other way, that premiership list would look very different with the Cats and Hawks still on four each. Collingwood, Richmond and Swans all with three each and the next best would then be a number of clubs with one flag each.
Considering there are plenty on here who also believe Buckley couldn’t coach, you could argue Hine is very unlucky and hard done by to have only been associated with two flags over that period.
In last twenty years the premiership tally reads like this -
Hawks and Cats - four flags each
Tigers 3 flags
Pies, Swans and Eagles - two flags each.
In that time, only two grand finals have been decided by less than a goal, with the Eagles being the beneficiary of both of them, while the Pies and Swans were both on the wrong end of one each.
I try to avoid the “ if your uncle was your aunt “ analogies but if for a very small amount of luck going the other way, that premiership list would look very different with the Cats and Hawks still on four each. Collingwood, Richmond and Swans all with three each and the next best would then be a number of clubs with one flag each.
Considering there are plenty on here who also believe Buckley couldn’t coach, you could argue Hine is very unlucky and hard done by to have only been associated with two flags over that period.
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Newelly
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Sharenberg, Freeman and Langdon. All had real potential but from memory only Langdon played in 2018 GF. Is that right?piedys wrote:
The 2013 fiasco; do I need to name names? Utter sabotage.
A fit and seasoned Freeman and Scharenberg might have been the difference but neither stayed injury free for significant periods in order to fulfill their potential.
Chuffed to have seen 3 flag wins in my lifetime but still greedy for more.
"Collingwood will assess whether it takes a pick in the upcoming mid-season draft on May 29, but like most clubs believe that pool of talent is modest.
Collingwood will have cap space of up to $4 million by the end of 2024 but there are few key position players on the market who could instantly slot into the Pies defence."
(Ralph & Cavanagh, The Australian)
Collingwood will have cap space of up to $4 million by the end of 2024 but there are few key position players on the market who could instantly slot into the Pies defence."
(Ralph & Cavanagh, The Australian)
We have qualified and participated in 11 Preliminary Finals since 2002. An exceptional record and one that has provided all Pies fans with unbelievable journey of joy in this time.
That aside, our greatest weakness and challenge ahead is our inability to headhunt and procure bonafide MATCH-WINNERS from other clubs since the recruitment of Nathan Buckley in 1994. A sobering statistic if there ever was one.
Consider rival clubs who have secured these high-end talents to great effect since the Bux recruitment.
* Geelong: P. Dangerfield and J Cameron
* Carlton: C Judd,
* Swans: B Hall, L Franklin, T Lockett
* Melbourne: S May and J Lever (lesser degree)
* Richmond: T Lynch
* West Coast: J Kennedy
* Hawks: Brian Lake, J Gunston
* Port: B Pickett, G Wanganeen
* Brisbane: A Lynch
* North: S Grant
We can do better!
That aside, our greatest weakness and challenge ahead is our inability to headhunt and procure bonafide MATCH-WINNERS from other clubs since the recruitment of Nathan Buckley in 1994. A sobering statistic if there ever was one.
Consider rival clubs who have secured these high-end talents to great effect since the Bux recruitment.
* Geelong: P. Dangerfield and J Cameron
* Carlton: C Judd,
* Swans: B Hall, L Franklin, T Lockett
* Melbourne: S May and J Lever (lesser degree)
* Richmond: T Lynch
* West Coast: J Kennedy
* Hawks: Brian Lake, J Gunston
* Port: B Pickett, G Wanganeen
* Brisbane: A Lynch
* North: S Grant
We can do better!
Last edited by inxs88 on Thu Apr 18, 2024 9:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.
I love the Pies, hate Carlscum
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Said by Zed
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I think your math might be a bit out mate…probably just a typo…but had me wondering for a few seconds what had I missed and if I was watching the wrong gamesinxs88 wrote:We have qualified and participated in 11 Preliminary Finals since 2022.
The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men...