Israeli–Palestinian conflict

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Re: Israeli–Palestinian conflict

Post by stui magpie »

^

OK, here's the article quoted in full, link in previous post. I'm sure you won't like it, but read it.
Monday marks one year since Hamas launched a bloody massacre which deliberately and specifically targeted Israeli civilians: men, women, children and babies all. Twelve hundred people died in the attacks and 251 were taken hostage. According to the Hamas-controlled Gaza Ministry of Health, more than 40,000 Palestinians have been killed by Israel in the name of wiping out Hamas, with many civilian casualties including unequivocally innocent children.

The October 7 attacks and the response from Israel mark a re-escalation in a dispute that is understood by many as primarily territorial. A year on, as the fighting spreads across the Middle East, joined by militant groups from many nations, it should finally be obvious that this conflict was never just about land. This is the oldest war: a war between religions.

A Palestinian woman sits in the rubble of her home in the wake of an Israeli air and ground offensive in Jebaliya, northern Gaza Strip.
A Palestinian woman sits in the rubble of her home in the wake of an Israeli air and ground offensive in Jebaliya, northern Gaza Strip. Credit:AP Photo/Enas Rami

Forgive me if this is not news to you; it didn’t hit home for me until I was travelling in the Middle East years ago on my German passport. Discovering my nationality, a sheikh greeted me with a Nazi salute and a confiding “Heil Hitler” witnessed by a cheering bus. I learnt a quick and shocking lesson.

It is not a surprise that many in the increasingly irreligious West fail to grasp the religious dimension. Most of our skirmishes over the past 100 years have been over earthly political utopias rather than the immortal soul. The Boomer counter-culture bible was The Communist Manifesto, and the martyrs and saints of that religion were “freedom fighters” such as the Marxist guerrilla Che Guevara.

As the popularity of that post-holy text has waned, it has been replaced with a millennial scripture, imposing a lens of colonialism and racial oppression on all the troubles of the world today. In the West, the Palestinian cause has been reduced to fit our understanding ever since the state of Israel was created – firstly by the Boomers, as they came of age and struggled to process the evil of Nazism in the aftermath of World War II. With little insight into the mass murders which had already been committed inside the Soviet Union in the name of Marx, the zeitgeist among many in the Boomer activist class was to conceive communism as a perfect world.

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The Palestinian Front for the Liberation of Palestine (founded in 1967, one of many similarly named but competing organisations claiming to be the rightful freedom fighters of the region) had the perspicacity to declare itself a Marxist-Leninist organisation. The PFLP’s alignment had the effect of neutralising any goodwill for the small-scale agrarian kibbutz communism of Israel. Instead, as historian Paul Berman recounts, the “new” left became focused on the mercantile success of Israelis and began to view the growing nation as the new capitalist class, making it the enemy.

Latterly, Millennials have become the dominant cultural force in the West (Gen X isn’t large enough to wield significant cultural power) and the communist ethos has gone out of fashion. It doesn’t really work with the consumerist mindset of influencer culture. Instead, a new binary has emerged: the coloniser and the colonised. (There isn’t much room for the nuance of human interaction in this binary.) This makes taking sides on Israel-Palestine easy, especially as Israel has become wealthy and strong, while Palestinians have remained impoverished.

But these post-religious belief systems are an entirely inadequate way to understand the conflict. Of course there is a territorial component, but that can’t explain why terrorist organisations such as the Yemeni-based Houthis and Lebanon-based Hezbollah have become involved. The Western paradigms provide no insight into why Iran’s governing ayatollahs provide arms, training and financial support to these organisations and other proxies across the Middle East.

Of course there is a land dispute between Israel and Palestinians, which is the result of Britain’s “gift” of already inhabited land to the Jewish people. But the greatest barrier to ending the conflict over land is the much bigger conflict between religions.

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Relentless intransigence the real reason for conflict in Middle East
The argument is as old as the prophets, you might say. Jesus Christ came along and some of the adherents of Judaism recognised in him the son of God; Mohammed started his own branch, too. All of them acknowledge Abraham as their ancestor who first made a covenant with God, but they believe God wants different things. As is the way with monotheism, believing in one of these religions precludes believing in the others. Their arguments are largely incorporated in the Christian Bible and the Islamic Koran. They were theological and territorial at the same time.

They remain both today. We in the West tend to remember World Wars I and II, but the decline of the Ottoman Empire is far too remote for Euro-centric minds. Not so for loyalists of the Islamic empire, who felt their shrinking borders acutely.

A pan-Arabic nationalist movement attempted to bind the remnants of that empire together using shared religion as their glue. When Jewish people were suddenly among them on previously Muslim-controlled land, it was seen by pan-Arabists as a further erosion of the fallen empire. A Syrian Islamic revivalist preacher called Izz ad-Din al-Qassam took up the cause of the peasants who were to lose land to Israel. He inculcated a sense of national consciousness in the people of the area, tapping their sense of injustice at being displaced. There is no denying that those peasants lost something without compensation. But there is also no doubt that al-Qassam was motivated by more than just seeking a fair deal for the dispossessed.

The Hamas militia today are named the Al-Qassam Brigades in his honour. The pan-Arab movement has become the political Islamist movement. The Palestinians suffer the most, with Iran’s religious authoritarian regime invested in the propaganda value of their ongoing misery. Meanwhile, Zionist zealots pushing further into the West Bank play their part in keeping the focus on land.

To contemplate a lasting peace in the future, it is crucial to appreciate the broader context. Right now, if the Jewish state stops fighting, it fears being overwhelmed by hostile neighbours. So here is a thought for those protesters who plan to yell this weekend: stop instead to talk and think. Everyone should feel the tragedy of Gaza; but it will take you and the peaceful Muslims protesting alongside you to also feel the Jewish tragedy, so this ancient and ongoing horror can once and for all find an end.

Parnell Palme McGuinness is managing director at campaigns firm Agenda C. She has done work for the Liberal Party and the German Greens.
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Re: Israeli–Palestinian conflict

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^ Just read it, and yes I don't like it. But not because it challenges anything I wrote. Rather, because it is absolutely false.

This war has nothing to do with religion. It is about the drive of US imperialism to redivide the globe in its own interests.
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Re: Israeli–Palestinian conflict

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So the Iranian Ayatollah's have been financing, training and arming terrorist groups around Israel because they're fighting the good fight against US imperialism and not because they hate having a Jewish enclave in the middle East?
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Re: Israeli–Palestinian conflict

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^ The ayatollah of Iran defends the class interests of the ruling elite in Iran, which uses religion to try to buy the loyalty of the Iranian masses, who -in their vast majority - are living in extreme want.

Their religious BS about the unity of Muslims etc is aimed at blinding the Iranian masses to what their class interests are and win them over.

The Iranian capitalist class will use the Iranian masses as cannon fodder if necessary in their conflict with US imperialism and its partner Israel, and it requires an ideology to
convince them that that is what they should do.

Here is a dialogue which explains the dynamic in process:

The capitalist class in Iran has no fundamental opposition to US imperialism. It simply wants to cut the best deal it can with US imperialism (and its proxy Israel). It is saying: we will stop needling you with our proxies if you come to the bargaining table and let us have some space to exploit the Iranian workers in our own interests, suck out profits from them, and use the oil reserves in Iran to amass our wealth separate from yours. We will give you a few spin offs, but we want to keep a certain about of the wealth for ourselves.

But US imperialism says: no way. You're demanding too much of the pie for yourselves. We demand 99% of the profits extractable from Iran, instead of your offer of 60%. You're a barrier to us because you're stopping us from getting what we want. So we are going to eliminate you through regime change.

Israel is a stooge of US imperialism. The Israeli capitalist class aims to cash in on the significant wealth that US imperialism will allow it to harvest as a result of being its proxy and enabler in the Middle East.
But Israel is a society riven by class conflict as well. Many Israelis live in dire poverty. Therefore, the Netanyahu government must find an ideology to win their loyalty in a war which is antipathetical to their social interests.

Hence, religion The mystical bullshit of Zionism in which Israel must reclaim the territories of the biblical land, and the fascist ideology which goes with it: when Netanyahu declared a few days after Oct 7 2023 to the Israeli people " You need to remember what Amalek did to you" , this was a reference to the biblical myyth of Judaism in which God instructs King Saul to annihilate the Amelakites, including children, babies, animals, men, women, everyone (Book of Exodus).
This was a call to genocide, couched in religious terms.
But the genocide is not motivated by God's words to King Saul
It is motivated by the class interests of the capitalist class in Israel, which is a total puppet of US imperialism.
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Re: Israeli–Palestinian conflict

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^
That's quite amazing how you did did that. You have most of the right puzzle pieces but you couldn't help but overlay them with your own ideology to come up with a coherent, yet incorrect, narrative that works for you.

Don't discount the role of Religion in this, it's a massive player regardless of who is pulling the strings and what their motivation is. (Power, getting it and holding it is a powerful motivator regardless of what label you throw over it) I know that both Christianity and Islam were created to enable control of the populace, promising eternal rewards in the afterlife for obedience and suffering in the earthly life, but the enmity between Islam and Jews is real, particularly from the Islamic side, and it's what enables both sides to dehumanise the other when murdering innocents.

Also the desire of Israel to have a safe haven. It's bloody hard to be a good neighbour when all your neighbours want you dead.
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Re: Israeli–Palestinian conflict

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I think there's always a complex web of power, money and ideology in these things. I largely agree with your analysis, MTTM, and think it's well explained, particularly regarding US–Iran relations, but I don't think we can elide the fact that Iran is a theocracy – which is to say, the powers that be not only espouse the dominant religion, but are themselves religious teachers and adherents who no doubt believe a great deal of what they preach about the need for unbelievers to convert to Islam, the evils of Judaism, etc.

I'm not sure that one can ever be too cynical about these things (in any authoritarian structure, including within religious faiths, I suspect the further you go up the chain the more hypocrisy and raw desire for power you get), but you can't take Islam out of Iran any more than you can take Christianity out of the Crusades – or religious Zionism out of the current Israeli government, for that matter. It's a bit from column A (self-serving lust for power and wealth, i.e. capitalism) and a bit from column B (ideology). Which is to say, ideology is not just a tool used to oppress the masses, but remains active within the power structure itself. It's a bit like the con artist in The Music Man: he always thinks there's a band.
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Re: Israeli–Palestinian conflict

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Yet another horror in Gaza, as if there were not enough already
Asbestos is present in most of the buildings in Gaza. The relentless bombardment by Israel and the reduction of most structures to rubble has released asbestos particles into the air
Experts are predicting that asbestiosis will plague Gaza for decades.

There is no doubt that Israel is making Gaza uninhabitable.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/10/ ... enerations

Here is another horrific graphic which gives an idea of the scale of the catastrophic destruction that Israel has caused in Gaza:

https://edition.cnn.com/interactive/202 ... e-year-dg/
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Re: Israeli–Palestinian conflict

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Magpietothemax wrote: Wed Oct 09, 2024 11:49 pm Yet another horror in Gaza, as if there were not enough already
Asbestos is present in most of the buildings in Gaza. The relentless bombardment by Israel and the reduction of most structures to rubble has released asbestos particles into the air
Experts are predicting that asbestiosis will plague Gaza for decades.

There is no doubt that Israel is making Gaza uninhabitable.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/10/ ... enerations

Here is another horrific graphic which gives an idea of the scale of the catastrophic destruction that Israel has caused in Gaza:

https://edition.cnn.com/interactive/202 ... e-year-dg/
What is the point of posting that?
They did all they could to provoke a war.
Guess what?
They got a war.
Nice things get broken in wars.
Civilians are victims in wars.
That's been the way since the first humanoid picked up a rock or stick and belted another one.
That's never going to change.
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Re: Israeli–Palestinian conflict

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Durka wrote:What is the point of posting that?
Same could be asked about your own post. Sharing facts about real-world events seems to me far more useful than comments in the vein of "war is bad, get over it".
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Re: Israeli–Palestinian conflict

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Besides, MOST of the people in Gaza did not in any way shape or form do anything to provoke a war. They just want to live their lives.
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Re: Israeli–Palestinian conflict

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think positive wrote: Thu Oct 10, 2024 8:14 pm Besides, MOST of the people in Gaza did not in any way shape or form do anything to provoke a war. They just want to live their lives.
I don't buy that. Too many Gazans celebrating what Hamas did on Oct 7. They might be regretting it now, but MOST Gazans are / were Hamas sympathisers / supporters.
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Re: Israeli–Palestinian conflict

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Many Israeli civilians are also cheering the war from the other side. I trust you don’t think that makes the Israeli population acceptable military targets.

As usual, the people in power on both sides and their respective cheerleaders around the world (like those posting here) have much more in common with each other than they do with the victims or those seeking peace on either side. What Hamas and Israel supporters agree on is that certain human lives are expendable, and that it’s no big tragedy if a certain kind of people are killed in huge numbers, or starved, or left sick, injured and homeless en masse.

The irony is that you condemn yourself by the same logic. It’s the people who see the world in the opposite way to you – who place value on human life – who would be standing up for your rights if you ever found yourself on the wrong end of a collective punishment campaign. It’s the only way to escape the cycle of dehumanisation and revenge that is currently in full swing.
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Re: Israeli–Palestinian conflict

Post by Durka »

I value human life as much as everyone else does.
I am realistic though, I don't live in a pretend world where you just wish for something and it happens, no matter how foolhardy the wish of some poster on the internet.
You pontificate in your posts about what people and governments should or should not do, but nowhere have you ever offered a workable solution - just meaningless, unworkable wishes. You are completely devoid of anything to do with reality and especially about what happens in war.
The comment that was made by another about civilians in Gaza not provoking or wanting a war is inane. Civilians can't say "it was my government that did it, not me, so I am not a part of this". If you are a part of that state, you are a part of it. Most people in Germany in WW2 weren't Nazis, yet they were bombed relentlessly then the Russians gang raped every woman they found, no matter the age (Stalin encouraged that, saying his men had fought hard and needed their relaxation) I am not aware of Hirohito consulting and obtaining most people before China was invaded. Or before South East Asia was invaded. Did Truman consult his people before the Enola Gay took off? Were its victims only civilians? It was up to a million civilians that died in WW1 in Germany due to the blockade. How many of those civilians provoked or wanted war? Civilians cannot be isolated from a war. The only saving grace for the Gazans is that the Israeli armed forces are far more discerning than armies in the past have been.
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Re: Israeli–Palestinian conflict

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David wrote: Fri Oct 11, 2024 1:21 pm Many Israeli civilians are also cheering the war from the other side. I trust you don’t think that makes the Israeli population acceptable military targets.

I do think that. If they celebrate it, then they support it and are equally complicit.
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Re: Israeli–Palestinian conflict

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During a war, civilian populations tend to get behind their own side and are flooded with media propaganda telling them that we're the good guys and the other side is the bad guys. Of course people are going to cheer for home team, doesn't mean they deserve to be targets.
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