Earthquake, tidal waves Southeast Asia.

[London Dave]

Hopefully one thing we could all agree on is that arguing over crap like this is plain wrong when so many lives have been lost and affected from this awful trajedy.

nope, I'd say it's the perfect time. I don't believe in an interventionist God, but I know darling, that you do.

http://www.theage.com.au/news/Opinion/I ... 09356.html

Is God to blame for this?
December 30, 2004

People may question their faith because of the random death and destruction caused by the tsunami, writes Kenneth Nguyen.

There are doubtless thousands of stories arising out of Sunday's tsunami that are just like Satya Kumari's. A building worker living on the outskirts of India's former French enclave of Pondicherry, Kumari saw walls of water sweep his town, leaving behind a trail of wet corpses. That and grief, inconsolable grief.

"Death came from the sea," he told reporters. "The waves just kept chasing us. It swept away all our huts. What did we do to deserve this?"

It is a pertinent and challenging question for all those who believe in an interventionist higher being, an omnipotent God. What did the many thousands of victims throughout Asia and Africa do to deserve their fate? And what sort of God would sanction such apparently meaningless devastation?

After all, scientists who leave God out of the equation have a simple explanation for the tsunami. A completely random tectonic fissure in the seabed created jet-speed ripples that ultimately unleashed their energy upon various shores.

For those who believe in an interventionist God, however, there is little choice other than to come to that difficult-to-face conclusion: responsibility for the tsunami must be sheeted home to God.

The Book of Job, for example, states: "God sends earthquakes and shakes the ground; he rocks the pillars that support the earth." Similarly, Psalms 104:32 states: "He looks at the earth, and it trembles; he touches the mountains, and they pour out smoke." From such Biblical material there is one inference. The destruction, the misery, the shrieks of pain: these occurred as part of His design.

Indeed, on one interpretation of the Bible, the implications of the tsunami run even deeper: the victims were not simply chosen by God so they could be delivered to (a potentially heavenly) fate. They might have been chosen because an interventionist God actually regarded the Hindus of India and the Muslims of Indonesia and the Buddhists of Thailand as deserving of earthly suffering.

Notably, Romans 8:28 posits that "God works for good with those who love him". (The truth of Romans 8:28 is said to be reflected in Acts 16:11-40, where God uses an earthquake to release Paul and Silas from jail in Philippi.) The flipside to this statement is, of course, that God has the power to punish those who do not love the Lord.

The Romans-derived view that earthquakes are an earthly expression of divine displeasure has a long history. For example, in the aftermath of the 1755 Lisbon earthquakes, which killed an estimated 100,000 people, Catholic priests roamed the city, blaming heresy suspects for the disaster and hanging them on sight.

Thankfully, the religious establishment, in its reaction to the Asian tsunami, has so far shown no similar signs of blaming the victim.

In a statement to faithful gathered in St Peter's Square, Pope John Paul called for prayers for the victims of this immense tragedy and expressed solidarity with all those who are suffering. But the Pope's statement did not tackle the tricky question of God's role in the tsunami, nor did it address why the victims might have been chosen by God.

Similarly, on this page yesterday, Tim Costello noted that he had "(no) easy way of dealing with the question of what is termed an 'act of God' ".

We should not necessarily expect all other Judeo-Christian leaders and commentators to be so reticent or tactful. In the aftermath to last year's Bam earthquakes, which killed more than 20,000 (mostly Muslim) Iranians, conservative American rabbi Daniel Lapin argued in the Chicago Jewish News that God dispatches natural disasters to punish those who have not embraced Judeo-Christian traditions. Noting that the US had been relatively untouched by natural disasters, Lapin wrote: "We ought to acknowledge that each day, every American derives enormous benefit from the faith of our founders and of their heirs." So goes the pungent logic of one who believes in an interventionist God.

For agnostics, including me, the tsunami has highlighted just how unpalatable the idea of an interventionist God ultimately is. Of the thousands killed in the disaster, probably about one-third were children, too young to have a fully considered view on the existence of God. Did they deserve to die? And what of the many Christians and Jews, including charity workers, still missing? Do they, and their family members, deserve their suffering?

The truth is, the random destruction wreaked upon our earth by one tectonic shift fits uneasily with prevailing visions of an all-powerful, philosophically benevolent God. Sunday's tsunami broke countless lives, hearts, communities. It would be little wonder if it ended up breaking many people's faith too.

[foxy]

I don't believe in an interventionist God, but I know darling, that you do.

nice.

[Birdy]

An article written by a godless agnostic using the deaths of so many as an opportunity to launch an attack on God. How disgusting. Funny how the God haters haven't mentioned any other trajedy from throughout history, but they decided to pounce on this one. Only the fools will question their faith as their hearts are weak. This is what is prophecied to happen and are signs that the end times are not far away, where Christ will return and the wicked will be convicted of all the insults they have spoken against God.

Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
Luk 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

[London Dave]

nice.

Foxy, it's from a maudlin song I was listening too earlier! Old fogey's will know it!


God haters?....no one said (or suggested) any such thing. Not believing is quantum leap from hating. Completely different.

Nor is the death of thousands being used as an attack on God. Simply posing a question. A question often asked by many people after events such as these (whether natural or man made, and I've seen a theory linking the earthquakes to global warning). You can avoid answering by simply dismissing it as being from God haters, but that's your prerogative. Not everyone views the world as you do. Disagree by all means, but it's a pretty illogical response throwing the God hater label.

How can an all loving God be responsible for this? Fair question. One persons response from The Age posted. here's another...

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/12/ ... 11542.html

Waves of destruction wash away belief in God's benevolence
December 30, 2004

Compassion is the best response when humanity faces the problem of evil, writes Edward Spence.

"Why did you do this to us, God? What did we do to upset you?" asked a woman in India this week, a heart-wrenching question asked in common these past few days by Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus and Christians. Nothing could have prepared us for what happened when the tsunami unleashed its terror. So we seek answers where answers are hard to come by, in either secular or sacred realms.

Traditionally, the Judeo-Christian God, considered the most supreme and perfect being in the universe, has been ascribed the following necessary attributes: omniscience (all-knowing), omnipresence (present everywhere at all times and at once), omnipotence (almighty and powerful) and benevolence (all good and caring).

How, then, did a God as powerful and benevolent as this allow such a thing to happen? If he is benevolent then he cannot also be omnipotent, for a God who has both these attributes would have wanted to, cared to and been able to prevent such a catastrophe.

Perhaps, though omnipotent, He is not benevolent. That might explain why, although it was within His power to stop the tsunami, He simply chose not to: God has His own reasons and we are not to ask why. However, this answer will not suffice since by definition God is perfect. Being perfect, He must of necessity not merely be omnipotent but benevolent as well.

A possible solution to this problem, traditionally known as the problem of evil, was offered by the heretical Manicheans, who believed not in one supreme being but two: one good God responsible for all the good things in life and another bad God, Satan, responsible for all the evil in the world.

St Augustine, a follower in his early 20s, became an ardent critic of this doctrine, thinking a weak God powerless to defeat Satan was not worth worshipping.

Philosophically, if God is perfect, then there can be only one perfect God, not two. In any case, evil is an imperfection and thus not a characteristic that can be attributed to God.

If the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune are at play and the deaths caused by the tsunami are a cosmic payback in the form of karma, does that offer a solution, albeit a philosophical one, to the problem of evil? I think not. For how can children, some as young as a few months, who had not yet lived their lives, deserve to be punished so cruelly for their past sins - especially when they have not been offered the promised divine opportunity to atone for those sins through another life?

Even if solutions are forthcoming to these philosophical conundrums, humanely speaking they make little sense. Perhaps that is why some people remain sceptical about the presence of any divine providence ruling over us.

A compromise solution, between secular scepticism and a psychological need for the sacred, was offered by the Greek philosopher Epicurus. Although believing in gods, he claimed these divine beings would not want to diminish their heavenly happiness by mingling in the sordid affairs of mortals. For Epicurus, the gods were not crazy but simply indifferent to both human joys and sorrows. When it comes to social or natural evils, we are all alone.

But if natural disasters are merely random events caused by the uncaring and blind forces of nature, does this offer us any comfort or meaning in the face of the apocalyptic events on Boxing Day?

Even if our heads offer us such solutions, our hearts refuse to follow. For the problem of evil is an existential problem that confronts our own individual mortality and vulnerability to unknown and unexpected disasters.

Ultimately, heartfelt tears shed in earnest and with compassion, with offerings of charity for those who have suffered, are more meaningful than any theological and philosophical treatise on the problem of evil. Especially at Christmas when, according to the gospels, love is the single core message.

Perhaps this is the essence, if the legend is true, of what God learnt from us when He walked and suffered as a man among us. Ultimately, the problem of evil confronts us not as a puzzle to be solved but as a mystery to be experienced. And as Jesus and Plato before him indicated, the meaning of the mystery of life can be found only by experiencing another great mystery - the mystery of love.

As for me, a natural disaster. They happen, and will continue to. The price we pay for living on this planet. As far as 'the end' approaching, good luck with it. It's about the only thing that is prophesised more but appears less than Collingwood premierships! I recall Don Dunstan walking out onto Glenelg pier again to prevent the 'apocalypse'. I guess I'll put my 'faith' with people like him!

[Birdy]

Fair enough, but the opinions of agnostics and philosophers isn't of much use as they don't know God. The thing is, this life is just a moment compared to the eternal nature of our souls. The innocent children who died would now be with God and they would be in a place of paradise. I have heard many people say that the children may have been taken so they could be saved before being indoctrinated with the worship of idols and false gods that is so common in that region of the world. The atheists and agnostics will look at the suffering of this fallen world and will not understand how a loving God could allow these things to happen, but they have no faith in eternal life and cannot begin to imagine the joy of such a place with God and without the sin that plagues this world.

The end times is not likely to be far away, and more natural disasters are prophecied to occur the closer we get. I just hope I get to see another Collingwood premiership before it all ends!

[pies4ever]

Cricketers pitch in
Shaun Phillips
30dec04

RICKY Ponting's Australian team will take part in a fundraiser for tsunami victims next week.

Officials had considered playing a 20-over-a-side match between Australia and Pakistan at the MCG today -- the scheduled fifth day of the Test that finished in Australian triumph yesterday.
But the event would have been to hard to organise at short notice, Cricket Australia spokesman Peter Young said.

The International Cricket Council hopes to co-ordinate an international charity day next week.

The Australian team yesterday donated its $17,000 Test prizemoney to victims


http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/common ... 62,00.html

[HAL]

Oh a web page.

[Johnson#26]

I don't think God really had anything to do with it....it was just a freak of nature, that was not predicted. As they say, another one will not come along for a long, long time and the innocent civillians were extreamly unlucky.

When was the last time something happened like this?

[blackandwhite4life]

I wasn't going to reply to all this bible-bashing crap as what has happened in Phuket and elsewhere has saddened me greatly as I've spent time there on a few occasions and met some beautiful people. Their lives and wellbeing have now been destroyed.

But some of the blinkered, standard biblical justifications being used by Birdy etc to explain what's happened just bring up the old anger I get when the closed minded religious fanatics get started.

It, nature stupid! It happens. Nature is all powerful and if we need look for any'god' it's right there. It's not some all mighty being sitting up in the skies looking down on us all to ensure the good ones go to heaven and the evil ones go to hell. Honestly, religion is at once the greatest con ever imposed upon mankind along with the single biggest reason for all of the wars and continual hatred that exists on the planet today.

To those that wish to live their lives in the fear that they must believe or they'll be off to hell; well it's your choice. Good luck. I just wish your influence on the rest of the world could be as non-influential as say some of us more open minded agnostics/atheiests and part time buddhists (now there's a 'religion' with some merit. Affecting no one and they haven't started too many wars or jihads that I can remember).

[Birdy]

You should do some research before you engage your tongue tweety , statistically, there have been FEWER natural disasters in the past century.

War , caused by religious fanatics is the biggest killer and destroyer of our planet.

Thats right , clowns like you who worship make believe figure-heads and fight over which one exists.

What rubbish, how many cones have you had today? Statistically there has been many more natural disasters over the past decade, what made you think the end times started at the beginning of the century? These are the signs we were told to watch for.

[Dr Alf Andrews]

There certainly SEEMS to have been a lot more natural disasters in recent times, but maybe in these days of mass communications we just hear about them a lot more. I don't know.

But I can't help thinking that the tragedies we are witnessing are symptomatic of massive changes in our environment that have happened over the last 200 years or so.

The Industrial Revolution and the invention of the car have changed our planet in a big way. We are seeing climate changes that used to take millions of years, happening within our own lifetime. Global warming is not just something the tree-huggers made up.

It is not an act of God. It's an act of man.

Earthquakes and tsunamis have always been around, but you can't tell me that the development, testing and use of nuclear weapons during the 20th century has not produced some sort of seismic legacy.

Again. It's not an act of God. You can place the blame squarely on the shoulders of humanity, our greed and our inability to live in peace with our neighbours.

Humans have always been greedy. Humans have always made war on each other. But our technologies have evolved to the point where the consequences of our stupidity are now catostrophic.

And Christians have always said that the end is nigh. It's one of the beliefs that helps to sustain their religion. Nothing like a good old dose of fear to keep the believers in line.

They've been saying it for 2,000 years. And they've always been able to point to whatever was happening in the world at the time as PROOF that the end times were upon us.

For 2,000 years the Lord has been coming back.

Yep.

For 2,000 years he's been due any day now.

For 2,000 years his believers have been waiting ...

... and waiting ...

... and waiting ...




HAPPY NEW YEAR, brethren ... and sisthren

... if we last that long.

[Woods Of Ypres]

You people have no souls!!
Happy new year 2005 - make the most of it while your alive
Because when you die thats it, its over
your a just a carcass in the ground - right?

[magpie meg]

Birdy i think that you are forgetting the most important thing that every individual is free to make up their own mind to whether there is a god or whatever they do or dont belive in. We live in a free democratic country where everyone has a right to think and say what they want, but no one has the right to shove their views down other peoples throats, and refuse to see anothers point of view just because it is not the one you agree with.

This Tsunami is a tragic event but it is a natural disaster!!!!!

[Joel]

Yeah, people cause earthquakes. Pffft. Sad, very sad, but don't kid yourselves.

[Dr Alf Andrews]

Yeah, people cause earthquakes. Pffft.

Don't write that off so lightly.

People do have the power to interfere with nature these days. And only a blind apologist for capitalist consumerism would deny that.

So, don't "pffft" me, Joel.