The great debate rages on. Now that it appears certain that we have the ability to win a fair few of our remaining games, should we win as many as possible or make sure that we get the first and second draft picks.
In my mind there is no doubt that we should make sure that we stitch up those draft picks. Sure we have our pride to think about, but lets face it, we have worn so much shit this year, up to now, that I reckon we have done the hard yards, lets now get the reward for enduring all of that.
Wooden Spoons are hard to take and if it was to be our first it might be a different story, (especially if Carlton had one or two) but the way things are now with drafts and salary caps we've got to use the system to our advantage and get back on top where we belong. We may not emulate 1977/78 and go from a Wooden Spoon to a Grand Final, but we could realistically be a top side next year with some astute recruiting.
I agree with Shawy's theory. You cannot go out and try to loose a game, but you can play all the kids and also experiment with positions. I think we should make sure we win the last one to give Shawy and Vic Park the send off they both deserve, but otherwise, lets continue to invest the rest of the year in our long term future.
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Damien
To win or not to win? Draft picks v Pride.
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Mike
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Before last week you would have had my total agreement, but during the 3rd quarter I found myself wondering if we could stop the roll even if we wanted to. We were kicking away and the feeling was wonderful - suddenly the draft was unimportant.
By all means play the youngsters, I don't think we have a choice anyway - that's where the endless energy and drive of the past few weeks has been coming from, but change for the sake of change or change to weaken the team would be so dispiriting that we may as well give them all the rest of the season off.
For me, the potential that the draft holds was something I could use to make me feel better about our performance. If we can win with this team, a team that holds so much promise for the future, then the draft ceases to be as important. It could certainly never give me the feeling that last Saturday's game did.
By all means play the youngsters, I don't think we have a choice anyway - that's where the endless energy and drive of the past few weeks has been coming from, but change for the sake of change or change to weaken the team would be so dispiriting that we may as well give them all the rest of the season off.
For me, the potential that the draft holds was something I could use to make me feel better about our performance. If we can win with this team, a team that holds so much promise for the future, then the draft ceases to be as important. It could certainly never give me the feeling that last Saturday's game did.
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bokka
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I can't relate at all to wanting to deliberately lose so as to get draft picks.
That system is designed to give a very weak side a leg-up - already pretty bad as it rewards mediocrity. But to pretend to be that bad when you're really not, makes it even worse. Where's the satisfaction in having a powerful side when you know they cheated to get it? winning a premiership with such a side would be a hollow victory and would be forever tainted in my mind.
I'm not objecting on moral grounds, just that it would take the satisfaction out of it.
That system is designed to give a very weak side a leg-up - already pretty bad as it rewards mediocrity. But to pretend to be that bad when you're really not, makes it even worse. Where's the satisfaction in having a powerful side when you know they cheated to get it? winning a premiership with such a side would be a hollow victory and would be forever tainted in my mind.
I'm not objecting on moral grounds, just that it would take the satisfaction out of it.
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Lozza
Damien, totally agree with you.
This is obviously a very hot debate and one thats opened to many opinions. Here's mine.....
The simple fact is that we have been a pretty ordinary team since 1992. At the moment, we are at our lowest point for a long time. Although we have been lingering around the bottom for the last few years, this year seems a little different. Why?? Because we know that the future is a lot more promising than what it has been in the last few years. Why?? Because we are playing the kids who have an abundance of potential. What else?? Because we know we are going to recruit a couple of more kids with an abundance of potential also!
For those of you who watched Shawry on Talking Footy on Monday would have understood what he was trying to say. For those who didn't, he was basically saying that anyone who wears the black & white jumper will never ever deliberately throw a game. He was also saying that they would not stop playing the kids (for obvious reasons) and if that meant losing well then so be it. His major point was that "Collingwood need to use the system", which is basically what we are doing now, and I couldn't agree more!
This is our best ever opportunity to rebuild this club. It is so critical that we use all resources possible to achieve this. If we stuff it up, then good night Collingwood. Thats the reality! We won't survive in this competetion as an average team. We need to be a top team and this is the time to do it, whatever it takes.
I think most people got a bit carried away with the emotion of the win on Saturday. Sure it was great, come from behind, the kids played great, Monky's 200th etc.., Wake up people, the season is over. It was written off a long time ago. Whatever happens for the rest of this season is next season.
Mike (administrator), you are a good example of getting a bit carried away with the emotion of the win against the Saints. I'm not sure how you can change your opinion in the space of a week. Your comments towards the end bamboozled me somewhat.
Quote "If we can win with this team, a team that holds so much promise for the future, then the draft ceases to be as important".
Are you kidding or what?? I agree that this teams holds a lot of promise for the future, but this draft is probably the most single important aspect in the future of this club. To say it "ceases to be as important" is ludicrous. The following two drafts will make or break Collingwood!
Bokka, who said anything about deliberately losing to get draft picks? Who said anything about pretending to be that be bad when we are not? All that the club is doing at the moment are palying the kids for the future of this club. If that means not winning as many games and getting some good damn draft picks then so be it. To be quite blunt Bokka, I don't give a rats arse how we win a premiership, I'll take it anyway we can get it.
Don't get me wrong guys, I don't go to the footy each week and hope we lose, but, if we are playing the kids, building a team and losing then I would rather see that happen than playing some old hacks, other players with no future and finishing 12th, like we have been doing for the last few years. The way the competition is structured your're better off finishing last than finishing ninth.
As Damien said, we have copped a lot shit this year and in the past, a few more months ain't gonna kill us. Lets use the system to make Collingwood a powerful club again.
For the first time in a long time, we are moving in the right direction, although we are moving down the ladder. Funny about that....
Long Live Collingwood!
This is obviously a very hot debate and one thats opened to many opinions. Here's mine.....
The simple fact is that we have been a pretty ordinary team since 1992. At the moment, we are at our lowest point for a long time. Although we have been lingering around the bottom for the last few years, this year seems a little different. Why?? Because we know that the future is a lot more promising than what it has been in the last few years. Why?? Because we are playing the kids who have an abundance of potential. What else?? Because we know we are going to recruit a couple of more kids with an abundance of potential also!
For those of you who watched Shawry on Talking Footy on Monday would have understood what he was trying to say. For those who didn't, he was basically saying that anyone who wears the black & white jumper will never ever deliberately throw a game. He was also saying that they would not stop playing the kids (for obvious reasons) and if that meant losing well then so be it. His major point was that "Collingwood need to use the system", which is basically what we are doing now, and I couldn't agree more!
This is our best ever opportunity to rebuild this club. It is so critical that we use all resources possible to achieve this. If we stuff it up, then good night Collingwood. Thats the reality! We won't survive in this competetion as an average team. We need to be a top team and this is the time to do it, whatever it takes.
I think most people got a bit carried away with the emotion of the win on Saturday. Sure it was great, come from behind, the kids played great, Monky's 200th etc.., Wake up people, the season is over. It was written off a long time ago. Whatever happens for the rest of this season is next season.
Mike (administrator), you are a good example of getting a bit carried away with the emotion of the win against the Saints. I'm not sure how you can change your opinion in the space of a week. Your comments towards the end bamboozled me somewhat.
Quote "If we can win with this team, a team that holds so much promise for the future, then the draft ceases to be as important".
Are you kidding or what?? I agree that this teams holds a lot of promise for the future, but this draft is probably the most single important aspect in the future of this club. To say it "ceases to be as important" is ludicrous. The following two drafts will make or break Collingwood!
Bokka, who said anything about deliberately losing to get draft picks? Who said anything about pretending to be that be bad when we are not? All that the club is doing at the moment are palying the kids for the future of this club. If that means not winning as many games and getting some good damn draft picks then so be it. To be quite blunt Bokka, I don't give a rats arse how we win a premiership, I'll take it anyway we can get it.
Don't get me wrong guys, I don't go to the footy each week and hope we lose, but, if we are playing the kids, building a team and losing then I would rather see that happen than playing some old hacks, other players with no future and finishing 12th, like we have been doing for the last few years. The way the competition is structured your're better off finishing last than finishing ninth.
As Damien said, we have copped a lot shit this year and in the past, a few more months ain't gonna kill us. Lets use the system to make Collingwood a powerful club again.
For the first time in a long time, we are moving in the right direction, although we are moving down the ladder. Funny about that....
Long Live Collingwood!
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Damien
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This issue is certainly a quandry....I will be at the 'G' tonight, braving the cold and barracking my little heart out for the Pies as usual and I will be dissappointed if we loose. Although that seems a contradiction from my original posting, I maintain the best result for us at season's end is the wooden spoon with four wins.
Bokka, I think cheating is too strong a description for using the system to our advantage. As Pie No Sauce said, the real cheats are Essendon & Melbourne. Essendon might win the Flag this year and all they got was a rap over the knuckles - where's the justice there?
It is paramount that Shawy and the selectors use the rest of the season to give further experience to the guys who need it ie: Michael Gardiner, Ben Kinnear, Brad Oborne, Chris Tarrant, Brent Tuckey. A positive finish to the year for some of these kids will be a big spur for next year.They must also balance that with dropping guys when it is warranted so they know their spot must be earned.
Anyway, Go Pies at the 'G' tonight.(I think)
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Damien
Bokka, I think cheating is too strong a description for using the system to our advantage. As Pie No Sauce said, the real cheats are Essendon & Melbourne. Essendon might win the Flag this year and all they got was a rap over the knuckles - where's the justice there?
It is paramount that Shawy and the selectors use the rest of the season to give further experience to the guys who need it ie: Michael Gardiner, Ben Kinnear, Brad Oborne, Chris Tarrant, Brent Tuckey. A positive finish to the year for some of these kids will be a big spur for next year.They must also balance that with dropping guys when it is warranted so they know their spot must be earned.
Anyway, Go Pies at the 'G' tonight.(I think)
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Damien
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Mike
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Please don't misunderstand me Lozza, I am in full agreement with both you and Damien regarding the importance of the draft to the future performance of the team. Even if we weren't in a position of having to rebuild, the value of being able to take the first couple of picks (and deprive someone else of them) should never be underestimated.
What I don't understand is what we are supposed to do differently. We have a young team that we have to play anyway. We can't afford not to play the young players - they are the team (or a large chunk of it), so it's not as if we are threatening our performance by using them. Our seasoned players, with a few exceptions, are tired and lack-lustre and, as I said in my previous post, it's the youngsters that have been largely responsible for the drive and energy that we've been seeing recently.
It was an exaggeration by me to suggest that I'd turned around in a week. We have all been seeing the potential in the team for the last month or so. Hard fought games lost through errors in judgement and skill or in another word...inexperience. What made last week so important for me was that I saw the difference that match experience could make. I saw glimmers of the future. Perhaps it was just an emotional reaction to a win, but I think there was more to it than that.
I believe that to swap and change the team, to try different combinations of players, experiment with field positions just because we have the luxury of being in a position to do so, and may also guarantee our draft priority by doing so, is dangerous in that we run the risk of undermining the confidence of the players and/or introducing a level of complacency. We also give ourselves an excuse for poor performance. After all, one of the major criticisms of Tony Shaw was that players were not left alone long enough to gain confidence in their positions and in the team. Now that he's going you want us to embrace his strategy.
By the way...I'm the only Mike here. I can only interpret the use of Mike (administrator) as some sort of dig. Nick and I administer this board, we are identified by the software as administrators and it labels our messages accordingly. It's not my choice to include the label.
What I don't understand is what we are supposed to do differently. We have a young team that we have to play anyway. We can't afford not to play the young players - they are the team (or a large chunk of it), so it's not as if we are threatening our performance by using them. Our seasoned players, with a few exceptions, are tired and lack-lustre and, as I said in my previous post, it's the youngsters that have been largely responsible for the drive and energy that we've been seeing recently.
It was an exaggeration by me to suggest that I'd turned around in a week. We have all been seeing the potential in the team for the last month or so. Hard fought games lost through errors in judgement and skill or in another word...inexperience. What made last week so important for me was that I saw the difference that match experience could make. I saw glimmers of the future. Perhaps it was just an emotional reaction to a win, but I think there was more to it than that.
The emphasis was on the as. If the draft is going to be the backbone of a rebuilding effort then it is vitally important. I believe that the backbone is in place and the draft is an important reinforcement...consequently it is not as important (as it seemed to be earlier).If we can win with this team, a team that holds so much promise for the future, then the draft ceases to be as important.
I believe that to swap and change the team, to try different combinations of players, experiment with field positions just because we have the luxury of being in a position to do so, and may also guarantee our draft priority by doing so, is dangerous in that we run the risk of undermining the confidence of the players and/or introducing a level of complacency. We also give ourselves an excuse for poor performance. After all, one of the major criticisms of Tony Shaw was that players were not left alone long enough to gain confidence in their positions and in the team. Now that he's going you want us to embrace his strategy.
By the way...I'm the only Mike here. I can only interpret the use of Mike (administrator) as some sort of dig. Nick and I administer this board, we are identified by the software as administrators and it labels our messages accordingly. It's not my choice to include the label.
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Pie no sauce
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Broadie
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Lozza - one of the most well worded arguments on these or any other pages.
I was at the 'G last night and saw 2 Collingwood teams:
- the team of 2000+ played in the first half and the last 10 minutes of the 4th quarter. They were skilful, created opportunities and were not afraid to attack the ball, even if it meant a few errors.
- the team that played the 3rd and up to the 18th minute of the last quarter was the team of 1996-8: rarely were options created downfield, nobody in defence wanted to be responsible for kicking the ball (lest they be the one to run it over) and we had far too many happy to be on the ground, not AROUND it.
The whole point is that last week we mostly saw the 2000+ team, with some "blasts from the past" in the form of Brown and Monky's games.
I never got too carried away with hte prospect of winning / losing last night's game, and neither did anyone else in the crowd. It was a very strange feeling. In fact, as we clawewd back to 7 points down, Pie fans were still leaving.
During the 4th quarter I yelled out "Way to preserve those draft pick, fellas" and instead of copping flack from fellow supporters I was given a muted cheer. It is obvious that most of us realise where we're at in 1999, and that "WINNING IS no longer EVERYTHING".
I'm not saying that ANYONE is trying to lose, nor that we deliberately set out to lose (all those arguments have been covered well by Lozza) - winning is just no longer a priority for the 1999 Collingwood foootball club.
It may be a bit sad, but it is also the best for the club in the long run
I was at the 'G last night and saw 2 Collingwood teams:
- the team of 2000+ played in the first half and the last 10 minutes of the 4th quarter. They were skilful, created opportunities and were not afraid to attack the ball, even if it meant a few errors.
- the team that played the 3rd and up to the 18th minute of the last quarter was the team of 1996-8: rarely were options created downfield, nobody in defence wanted to be responsible for kicking the ball (lest they be the one to run it over) and we had far too many happy to be on the ground, not AROUND it.
The whole point is that last week we mostly saw the 2000+ team, with some "blasts from the past" in the form of Brown and Monky's games.
I never got too carried away with hte prospect of winning / losing last night's game, and neither did anyone else in the crowd. It was a very strange feeling. In fact, as we clawewd back to 7 points down, Pie fans were still leaving.
During the 4th quarter I yelled out "Way to preserve those draft pick, fellas" and instead of copping flack from fellow supporters I was given a muted cheer. It is obvious that most of us realise where we're at in 1999, and that "WINNING IS no longer EVERYTHING".
I'm not saying that ANYONE is trying to lose, nor that we deliberately set out to lose (all those arguments have been covered well by Lozza) - winning is just no longer a priority for the 1999 Collingwood foootball club.
It may be a bit sad, but it is also the best for the club in the long run
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bokka
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As I said before, I'm not saying it's "bad" or immoral to play for the draft. But it's no less cheating than what Essendon or Melbourne did. the main diference is that what they did is against the rules - hence risky - and they had to pay money for it.
So at least they took a risk and paid, unlike planning to finish on the bottom for draft picks. Really I just personally don't like it, but I've already explained why. I can understand it to some extent from the club's point of view, since it's big business these days. But for supporters?
ANyway it's academic since I'm almost sure it's not happening, even without the draft system they'd be playing the same young teams.
Sorry if the word cheat offends people. I suppose it has moralistic overtones,which aren't intended. How about "diddle"?
So at least they took a risk and paid, unlike planning to finish on the bottom for draft picks. Really I just personally don't like it, but I've already explained why. I can understand it to some extent from the club's point of view, since it's big business these days. But for supporters?
ANyway it's academic since I'm almost sure it's not happening, even without the draft system they'd be playing the same young teams.
Sorry if the word cheat offends people. I suppose it has moralistic overtones,which aren't intended. How about "diddle"?
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Greg J
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I was at the Friday game and I was barracking for the win in the fourth quarter. While the game is on I barrack for the win.
Once the game is over and we loss I take consolatation in the potential draft pick it brings us closer to.
The real shame is that we had no choice but to play the younger players, the older players could not finish above twelve. It would be a crime if the club planned from the outset not to win more than five games. It is not a crime to recogonise the possible outcomes arising from a particular decision. The decision to clean out some of the older players, always raised the possibility that we would bomb out for a year (it was never a certainty).
The lads go out to win every week and are visbily frustrated with getting beaten. I go to see them win every week (even this year).
Once the game is over and we loss I take consolatation in the potential draft pick it brings us closer to.
The real shame is that we had no choice but to play the younger players, the older players could not finish above twelve. It would be a crime if the club planned from the outset not to win more than five games. It is not a crime to recogonise the possible outcomes arising from a particular decision. The decision to clean out some of the older players, always raised the possibility that we would bomb out for a year (it was never a certainty).
The lads go out to win every week and are visbily frustrated with getting beaten. I go to see them win every week (even this year).
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eye
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foxy
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whatever happens collingwood will never try to lose a game. we'll always want to win no matter what. and no matter how you feel about this whole draft thing, if you're a true supporter then you'll always be annoyed if we lose, or you might cry as i do sometimes. did anyone see eddie after last week's game? that wasn't the face of a man who was after priority draft picks. that was the face of a man who wanted to see the black and white victorious.