#24 Tarkyn Lockyer

[WhyPhilWhy?]

Jeez Abi - a bloke that was knocked out a couple of times this year isn't putting his body in????

When did he "shirk it"? What commentators "made a point" and what "point" did they make?

43 tackles for the year is up there in the Licuria class. Not a sign of someone taking a sideways step.

You remind me of the type that reckons Steve Waugh is only playing for his average.


"I am disrespectful to scum! Can you see I am serious!"

[This message has been edited by WhyPhilWhy? (edited 13 November 2002).]

[Abi]

Ok my Tarkyn gleeful was a bit tongue in cheek, but feeling as I was the day after the granny I wasn't happy to see him beaming widely on national tv. But I stand by my other comments. Think of the last twice he was knocked out, by Molloy's rather clumsy effort, nothing to do with Tarkyn's courage and I am not being derogatory there and by Matera who cowardly elbowed him behind play, he wasn't at that stage putting his body on the line. A couple of times he has pulled out of marking contests when his head was on the block, maybe a legacy of his past knocks, but he's not in the top few most courageous guys in our team, please spare me. Why do you think he rarely has an opponent? He is basically an outside player allowed to run free because he causes little damage, has little impact. O'Bree, Bucks and now Lica get tagged because of their respective impact. Awesome some of you say. How would you rate the true champs? You say he is integral to a premiership onslaught. He finishes above the likes of Bucks and Rocca in the Copeland. Who is more important? I will give you the choice. You're not surely saying we can't win a flag without him. I mean we're confident of winning one without Davis, who certainly performed more matchwinning feats in the fewer games he played. I will happily be proven wrong but I don't see him improving greatly. He is relatively short, not over quick, skills are good without being super, he can't win a one on one, and go back and check all the tapes for that and he doesn't exactly win matches by other means. Scotland is dispensable but if given the same opportunities as Tarkyn would be just as effective.

Pie fan forever

[Joel]

Abi - I really think you are having a go at Lockyer for no valid reason. He is still a kid remember, just like Tarrant, just like Fraser etc. He will get bigger and better as the years go by. He has talent, you cannot deny that. Furthermore, I have never seen him not go in hard at the ball. Maybe you are watching different games to the rest of us.

JDF

"We've never quit, and we won't."

[Pies Premiers 2003]

There is more to the Copeland then best on ground efforts abi...additionally I have seen him win plenty of one on one duals and is a great overhead mark on the lead for his size....
Like Joel states perhaps your watching a different game....

Naturally one player is not going to win or lose us a GF....its a team effort and he is always in our highest possession winners....take out 25 (quality) touches a week and YES we would miss him...

No doubt Rocca and Bucks can win games off their own boot...but Tarks plays a different role...

You will be proven wrong again and again (quite frankly you seem to be talking in tongues)

TARKS = ALL CLASS




THE PIES GO MARCHING ON

[Blanch]

Tarks can't win a one on one? hmmm...just one question....if he can't win a one on one then why would phil matera elbow him in the head? Matera was on 0 goals for that game up until that point...totally outclassed.

Also I believe that many people have no idea how the copeland scoring works. There are also votes allocated for the player in each area of the ground, regardless of a win or loss. Collingwood are the only club to use their voting system. It's unique - just the way we like things.


My oxygen is Collingwood. Without it I die.

[Cam]

Our best kickers out imho are buckley & clement. scotland will surpass alot of people this year, lockyer included.

Hard at it. The Collingwood way.

[MissMagpie_20]

I am stunned Aabi. Thats harsh.

I think Tarkyn epitomises the Collingwood spirit and i think he's a little champ. Definatly future captain material. Plays for the jumper and plays with passion. Gotta love the guy.

GO TARKS

_________________________
VOULEZ VOUS COUCHER AVEC MOIR TAZZA?

Floreat Pica - May the Magpies prosper

[Abi]

So speaking in tongues am I because I may have aired some remotely controversial comments. I try to be objective and not speak through rose-coloured glasses, just as I did in my cricket post. Remember weeks before season's end I predicted the imminent departure of Davis, but had the thread deleted as unsubstantiated comments. Well it was fact then and so it proved to be. But most people chose to wear blinkers and waited until it became fact until they lambasted him. I was well prepared, as were many of the players and administrators as they read the writing on the wall. I had the evidence from the person himself. Now I choose to air a slightly divergent view concerning Tarkyn. If in fact as some people say the Copeland awards votes for people performing in various areas of the ground, it is flawed unless degree of difficulty is factored in. Might not Malthouse's views be skewed somewhat to his favourite back pocket position? Is it not harder to perform as a forward, especially centre half forward? Is that why Rocca didn't get in the top ten in 2001 and struggled in relative terms this year? how could Bucks be rated as our eighth best this year? Do you REALLY believe Tarkyn was more influential? I would contest the idea he gains 25 quality touches. Check back your tapes folks and closely analyse. Do you really think if this was the case other teams wouldn't tag him? Why would they choose to tag Bucks, Obie, or Lica ahead of Tarks? Think about it! Why perhaps didn't Tarks fire a shot in the finals? Isn't that the stage where true ability and worth comes to the fore? Didn't Bucks miss a month of footy prior to his first final. A week later he fronts in the granny and who do you think was best afield, none other than the guy who apparently was four places below Tarkyn in the Copeland which also awards guys for merely turning up, they get one vote even if they sit warming the bench for the entirety of the match. What a crazy system. Who could take it seriously. No wonder Rocca is pretty miffed about it. And folks Tarkyn is still young but no pup. He is 23 and coming up for his sixth season actually at the club. His leadership is also overrated. He's not bad off the field, he organizes some nifty activities for his group which he mentors, unlike some of the other mentors. But on the field there is little evidence of him taking the bull by the proverbial horns. Many of you seem to think I am talking rubbish but may be surprised to think what several people who actually know a lot about people think.

Pie fan forever

[Abi]

Ok guys I give up, I know nothing, Tarkyn is a gun and we couldn't win a flag without him. Scotland may not be a Pie for very much longer either, probably needs some game time. Oh the December draft beckons does it not? I think Tarks best asset actually is his fitness by the way.

Pie fan forever

[Murray]

Memo Abi - Don't give up.
Your argument is well thought out and your points are well made.
Because others might disagree with you does not necessarily make you wrong.
For what it is worth I tend to agree with you on SOME of your assessment of Tarks and if you have a look at some of the posts in this thread so do others.
Like you I try to look at things objectively even though we both love Collingwood with passion.
It is a fact that on kick ins Tarks misses the target frequently.
It is a fact that during the finals he was relatively ineffective.
It is a fact that he cannot be compared to Bucks.
However, he is, IMO, very effective from the HB line and anywhere forward of it.
In the forward line he makes great leads and is a reasonably accurate kick at goal (which makes you wonder why he can't hit a target on kick ins).
Abi ignore the personal attacks on you, if a person cannot discuss the topic without resorting to personal attacks then they are all the poorer for it.
Take a leaf out of the book of Alf, Cam, Craig, Blanch and occassionally Ben and Mike who discuss the merits of your argument instead of attacking you and Abi, push your point of view until you have exhausted it. I enjoyed reading you posts on this topic.


DARE TO STRUGGLE - DARE TO WIN

[This message has been edited by Murray (edited 14 November 2002).]

[JLC]

Can you please define the word "frequently". I would have thought that Lockyer was one of the better players in the AFL when taking kickouts. How often does he miss his target on kick outs ??

Not many players can be compared with Bucks.



Essendon 2000 premiers
2001 runners up
2002 fifth
2003 ????
The slide continues

[AnthonyC]

You've got it right JLC. The obvious mistakes that Tarks has made kicking out are very few. I reckon he is the best kick-out in the comp. And maybe the FEW he has missed is because he WASN'T going for the safe option. I'm not going to enter into any argument over any other issues but I'm telling you the guy is an absolute star on pinpoint passing. Besides forget about overrating, our WHOLE team is underrated by everybody bar our supporters.


Go Pies!

[Joel]

Abi,

Just as you have your opinion, so does everybody else. Just because some people don't agree with your opinion doesn't mean you aren't being listened to.

JDF

"We've never quit, and we won't."

[AnthonyC]

If I haven't said it before, I like to know the facts first. For those who can be bothered, check out the following, you may have to move down the page.
http://www.prowess.com.au/pro-stats/main.html

Basically Tarks had 127 kick-ins with 7 turnovers. I'd say that's pretty bloody good!

(Actually just checked the link, select Form Guide on the menu at the left, and then select Kick-Ins.)


Go Pies!

[This message has been edited by AnthonyC (edited 14 November 2002).]

[Cam]

Why is it such a crime to say that a guy isn't that good at kick ins? He may have started the year ok, but by the end he was not real flash and his confidence was shot. Like some others i don't class a kick in a short kick to an unmarked player 10 metres away in the back pocket. I mean, i could hit murray with that one myself and we'd both get a stat or two out of it. It's his kick ins beyond 45 metres that were the problem. I would imagine a boundary throw in result does not count as a turnover in their kick in stats as well.

So let's have a close look at those stats
- kick ins long - tarkin 16% - one in 6 of his kick ins was a long one, 26 in total - compared to 60% of clements and 42% of buckleys

of those 26, 5 directly led to the opposition getting the ball

- kick ins short - tarkin 72% or 92 of his kick ins were short ones of which only 2 were turnovers. not much of a surprise considering how safe the short kick in is.

- kick ins marked by us. tarkin - 94/127. again not surprising since 92 of his kicks were short.

- long kick ins marked, only 9/26 were marked by us. 5 were marked by the opposition or taken by them, which means , 12/26 did not go to us or the opposition - must be out of bounds.

summary: tarkin is fine kicking in if you just want a chip to lica in the back pocket. he is a superb short kick.

Anyway wakelin can't kick in either. Does it matter so much. Its a pity anthony rocca cant run all the way down there to kick out, and then run all the way back.


Hard at it. The Collingwood way.

[This message has been edited by Cam (edited 14 November 2002).]