Trades/Delistings

[eye]

An excellent perspective. Full marks for your honesty in an attempt to eliminate the illusion!

[Fradam]

Well B & W Blood you sure are quick to put the knife through anyone who played one bad game arn't you. Gosh if Buckley had of played bad on Sunday you'd wanna get rid of him too!!!! Have a bit a faith in the guys, show a bit of support, they are only young. I'm tired of hearing how Prestigiacomo has no flair, so bloody what!!!! Simon does a great job, the guy is only 21. He has a lot of time to delevop. He was great on Sunday, he did all he could. The ball was being placed on the Carlton forwards chests and yet he cut Beaumont out of the game in the second half. Simon has been great this year. Not everyone can be a champion, you don't see side with 18 Careys on the field do you, as the great Tom Hafey said you need "good ordinary players" I know some players need to be cut or traded but the length of your list is bordoring on stupidity. In the past we got rid of Orchard, Brett James, Sanderson and McCartney all before they we 21, how silly is that. They all went on to play better football at other clubs. Ya gotta stick with them. Tuckey isnt perfect, he's a bit skinny and he kicks too many behinds but just because he does that doesnt mean we should get rid of him, give him time to build up, to work on his faults. Orchard is fantastic at getting in uder the packs and when Buckley likes to recieve the ball rather than go in and get it then we need players like Orchard. Give him a go, he's only be back at the club one injury ruined season. You had Jacotine on your trade list, gee wiz. He's only 19, give him a chance. Finally Schuable was good on the weekend, he deserves another chance. Yes players need to be traded and delisted, but lets not be stupid about it, lets use some common sense.

[Bish]

I havent posted a message for a while on this board, but i was extremely surprised at this post by B&W blood. I put it down Collingwood supporters over-reacting after a bad game. I agree on some of the players, but others are just outrageous.

Wild - Totally agree. Must be delisted, will never get a trade. Trys hard, but shows that u cant play AFL footy on effort alone.
Patto- Has no left side, but has been a handy player for a couple of years. Shouldnt be thrown away, even tho u wont get a trade for him coz of his age. 1-2 years left.
Godden- This is basically the one that made me post this message. NO WAY! When godden first came to C'wood he was shit, and couldnt kick for crap. Now he is a really important player in our backline. His kicking has improved significantly. Turnovers? I dont see them. He is a reliable pass on BOTH sides, but cant kick over 45m. Carlton game was his worst for the season, but what a mismatch vs beuomont. And he's also an agressive player and an all-round tank. Never get rid of him.
Presti- Damn, wat were u thinking. Has been good this year and is finally coming good. Restricts his man well and actually runs off sometimes.
Tape- gone, a hack
Schauble- interesting, could get a trade, although right now it is all a confidence thing, and i think whether we keep him will be decided in the remainder of the season.
Smith- Give him a go in the seniors, and if nothing is shown, delistment time.
Crow- I hate players who sit on outside of packs. Absolutely finished. Possible group trade tho.
Olerenshaw- We'll see next week, coz he'll be in for sure. Hampered by injury, but is certainly talented.
Orchard- Should be given a chance still. Started the year fantstic. Pacy, and a pack player. King and him vie for the same spot. King has the upper hand ATM.
Richo- Possible trade, although i believe should be kept as long as his pay is not too much.
Fuller- Goal kicking MIDFIELDER (changed from forward). Continued dominance in reserves. When he played for us i thought he did well, and it wass harsh to drop him. Very fast, smart, and has good skills. Not worth nething on the market, so no way.
Jaco- He's played less than a whole season for gods sake, and in that has shown that he will be a good player.
Walker- GIVE HIM A GO IN THE SENIORS TONY!! Please!!!
Gardiner- Has talent and much potential, should be kept.
Tuckey- Great mark, awful kick. Must improve kicking.
Maccas- U actually gave him a bit of a wrap here. This guy sucks. Was never a good player since being drafted no.1. Cant believe he has stayed with us for this long.

WOW wat a marathon post. Id just like to add that supporters shouldnt say that we are shit now just coz of one bad game. I reckon we will challenge West Coast next week, although WC on the rebound are deadly.
One more thing, seeing as i wont post again for some time. I came in the third quarter of the reserves and saw one of the best dominations of a game by ben kinnear. He marked everything and kicked them from everywhere. Future forward star. I tipped him from the beginning when he was playing in defence. Speed, marking, kicking, everything.
Thats enough from me, GO PIES! Priemership '2000.

[foxy]

what was that thing b&w blood posted? talk about being reactionary. it's lunacy to say that godden should be delisted, whilst he still has trouble kicking he's a perfect back pocket/tagger. remember he's already claimed the scalps of farmer and ronnie burns this year. no way presti should be dropped, he's just coming good. orchard! he's a gun player, or else he wouldn't have stayed in the sydney side all that time. the guy is not only one of the best taggers in the game but he's perfect in and under the pack. he does the stuff people don't notice. patto..let's not forget how much we were loving him during the freo game. he's purely a forward pocket with an eye for goal, not a midfielder. if you watch him closely you'll see he has a beautiful pickup. gardiner is a poor man's jeff white, he'll develop. olarenshaw got 26 possies in his first game for the pies, then got injured. how can we judge him? the guy will star this week, trust me. fuller is still very young, i like him in the midfield rather than as a forward. schaubs - let's not forget how good he was in 96-97. it's all confidence for him; he hasn't got the ideal footy persona so he's probably intimidated by the other young players who are oozing with self-confidence. just needs some fitness over summer, needs to stop worrying about his commerce degree. tuckey's kick isn't that bad. the guy just needs better body language, we need to cheer him on when he takes a mark, not give a slow 'ohh'. he needs confidence, because he can kick. he kicked one from about 60 out against hawthorn if you didn't notice. wildy - to have played over 50 games he can't have been that bad. jaco!!!?? rated as the 10th best rookie in the paper, and we're going to delist him? there's logic for you. he's got strength for a little man, courage, and takes a strong mark. crowy's not that bad; the guy takes a good mark. enough from me, i talk to much about the pies.

[eye]

Let's be cautious about "coming good" comments.

[Charlie]

Dear B & W, you are absolutely right. I have no wish to offend other supporters here, but they do seem to have their heads in the clouds (or sand). Its time for a reality check. The players you went through are all handy, and if we wish to be inward looking we should keep them , and I suppose we can turn the ladder upside down , and consider ouselves on top. The fact is : if we compare those players with players (of equal standing) from the top clubs, then they are simply not up to it. If we wish to truly improve the side, and be a competitive top 4 proposition, then these players have to make room for the players who will help take us there. I.E. Who would you rather have coming out of your backline ? Godden or Wanganeen, or bourke, or one of 10 port players etc. etc.
Perhaps to make a more objective point :
If you look across the lines (B,HB,C,HF,FF) we need to have 2 winners out of 3 to make the top 4. And the 3rd player has to break even. By a winner, I mean someone who can beat his opponent 70% of the time.
We currently have players who beat their opponent 40% of the time, and players who break even at their best ability. You can't keep them all. Some will survive on our list purely as backups, but we need to look for winners.

[Bill Banks]

Collingwood must get more height onto its list. Our average height is 185cm. which hasn't changed since 1990, compared to other sides like West Coast, Hawthorn and others with an average of 187cm. We have 20 players under 6 foot (183cm) and should turn over half of them. We have to keep the quality ones and young ones with huge potential as follows: Williams, Burns, Lockyer, Licuria, Lane, Oborne, Jacotine, King, Adkins, Godden and Betheras. The 9 that should go are:
Orchard: he has to go because of his very low goal scoring potential and lack of overhead marking ability.
Patterson: his weaknesses are well known and he's rising 29.
Olarenshaw: we just can't use him.
Freeborn: He's 27 in February and the 11 goals he has snagged this year shouldn't cover up for his limitations.
Fuller: lacks ball-getting ability and flexibility.
Wild: can't be carried any longer.
Crow: must have the run of the ball to get kicks and has too few hard ball gets.
Raso: youthful, but can only be used in the back half and is a ball gatherer rather than a ball getter.
Scotland: He's promising but probably the weakest of the current crop of young players.

[Pie no sauce]

Just read this over a coffee and must admit it was good reading all the different views expressed. Amazing how the opinions vary isn't it. Take Crowy for example, his waltz around the packs could be a disadvantage for us, but play him alongside Libba and he could be a champion. (Factor 2 team-fit). Take Patto as an example, good when the fires burning but so would any other guy be if he was running alongside a conveyor belt to goals (similar to Ahmat). When it comes to the crunch he is marginally skilled, doesn't get in etc. (Factor 1 footy-skills). Take Richo, potential champ, born and bred to play league footy, is it 2ry to scoring chicks or what? (Factor 1.5(?) Psychological desire to succeed).

The point I'm making here is that some sort of logical analysis needs to be utilised to be able to draw predictable results.

Do you think the septics would have got to the moon without such an approach.

Ho, an alternative. McHale, Jeans, Sheedy etc are examples of guys who are out and out Mystics. They probably have theories on how they can assemble the right mix of players but basically it just comes to them and,, is generally right.

So,,, why not an amalgam of these two approaches. Get the best (mystical) Coach for starters. And then introduce some real structured scientific thinking into how to judge the players various skills, their psyche, their role in the team fit etc etc.

A good example of this is horse racing support systems. A friend of mine here in Hong Kong does some work for a punting business. It's basically data driven from publicly available stats on performances, melded with "mystical" input from the principals. They are so successful that the HK Jockey club has tried to prevent them from continuing on more than one occasion. They are VERY successful and as a result VERY rich. Why, because they approach the vagaries and randomness with a serious intent to WIN.

[Fradam]

I find it ironic that the people who say I have my head in the clouds are the people who have their heads in the clouds themselves. We don't have to make the finals this year, no way known we do, all we have to do is improve. I would love for us to make the finals next season but the list cutters who are in this forum has no grip on reality. Tony Shaw said on the radio on Saturday that Collingwood fans shouldn't expect the team to make the finals next season, thats not mediocraty, thats reality. We aren't that far away from being a good team, just a few more tall guys. Lets thank goodness B & W isn't isn't at Collingwood. He would delist 17 players, a lot of them with less than three seasons of football. No club in the AFL would delist 17, ever.I dont accept mediocraty, thats rubbish. Some of the guys you have listed must go, but some that you people have named is utter stupidity. Show a bit of faith for cryin out loud, dont expect every kid to be a superstar in their first few seasons. One player none of you have named who I think should be delisted is Watson. Backstabbers use your brains please for all Collingwoodkind.

[foxy]

one thing that sets all the players we apparently need to delist apart from all those 'good' players from other clubs, e.g. wanganeen, is that they bond well. they're young and they've already formed a good unit. personally i'd vomit if wanganeen was running off our back line instead of godden. did someone say scotland was the weakest of our young players? not at all. he's deceptively tall, well-built, and has a good steady kick, in the mould of tarks. and i agree with the comment on richo being a born and bred footballer. us supporters have never given the guy a fair go, never. when he takes a good mark we all sigh, and when he kicks a good goal then his constantly relaxed body language makes us think he doesn't care. and we need to keep orchard, and olarenshaw. they both have some finals experience, and they are both definite senior players, the kind of guys to take over from crosisca and monkhorst and co. watto is merely a flash player. put him in another club and he'd flourish, just we're so cynical about the guy. let's not forget how he was in his first two years.

[Charlie]

Over the last 2 years we have delisted approx. 25 players. These players were not delisted for the sake of pleasing the backstabbers, they were not delisted to improve team balance, they were delisted because they offered no further scope for improvement. As a result , we can now look forward to better years ahead. The process of improvement will continue, and players who have chinks in their armour , will be turned over.
I have been a member for 20 yrs, and this is the worst list (apart from last 2 yrs) that I have ever seen. We get so used to making excuses for players who try, that we tend to forget what skills a really good team/player should posses. I watched a local game a couple of weeks ago (Lalor), and some of their players could easily replace a godden, Patto, Schauble , Richo etc.
We can fall into the trap of talking about players like they were movie stars, or our favourite teddy bear. 15 years ago when St. Kilda and Fitzroy lost every game , they used to talk about their team in the same way. Fitzroy is gone, and St. kilda started to think seriously about being a better football club.
On a bright side, I feel our top 10 players are as good as anybody going around. Our young guns offer potential. The half skilled should get the boot.

P.S. No offence intended for comments such as 'heads in clouds/teddy bear' etc.

[petro]

I find it very interesting that some people can not put Mark Orchard in our best twenty two players. Yet he was in Syndeny's best 22 last year and they are a hell of alot better than us, I regert to say.

[foxy]

petro, spot on.