Thougts on the Collingwood list, we have good nucleaus of young talent with the club recuiting pretty well the last few years. But some players will have to go and it's going to be the mid range players who have been around a while. Average - Good League players who have given degrees of good service to Collingwood but have played their best and we need to keep recuiting talent so
Mid-range hacks (delisted)
Crow, McDonald, Watson, Wild, Walker
are all almost certainly gone.
(vetran, leaders)
Croascia, Brown, and Monkey will all hang on I think as the club does need leadership and experince and monkey is the only real ruckman on the list.
(Champions In their Prime.)
Buckley, Burns.
(Good Young Talent)
Kinnear, Tarrent, Wasly, Michael, A Rocca, Licura, Davis, King, Orchard, Lane, Llockyer
(Untest & Unkwon)
Adkins, Oborn, Scotland.
(The Big Men)
Presti, Schaubs, Tuckey, Veanables and Richardson.
none of these guys has quite nailed a spot in our best 22, They all have shown some ability for the years at the club, and have time to improve big men take time, the next year or so two of them should cemet their spots at the others expense, Richardson keeps his spot cause of his verstility, average at CHB, average FB, average CHF, avearge FF, average Ruck.
(Borderline)
Smith, Pattison, Fuller, Olerenshaw, Tape, Williams,
If willo could handle a tag he'd be a champion. Tape has been unlucky but shows talent, Olerenshaw remians a big question mark.
Trades/Delistings
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foxy
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Damien
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I reckon Pugsville has raised an interesting point that is bound to create some controversy.
There is no doubt that Paul Williams has had a frustrating past two seasons due to injury and lack of a decent pre-season. He has possibly carried a bit of extra weight and come back from injuries too soon. We all know what he is capable of but has lacked consistency and needs to kick more goals.
He would be a very attractive trade prospect to other clubs.
Having said all that, Willo has been a great player for the Pies, of the post 1990 Premiership guys, second only to Bucks.
As for Tape, I reckon the guy has great skills but definately lacks pace, thats why Richmond let him go.
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Damien
There is no doubt that Paul Williams has had a frustrating past two seasons due to injury and lack of a decent pre-season. He has possibly carried a bit of extra weight and come back from injuries too soon. We all know what he is capable of but has lacked consistency and needs to kick more goals.
He would be a very attractive trade prospect to other clubs.
Having said all that, Willo has been a great player for the Pies, of the post 1990 Premiership guys, second only to Bucks.
As for Tape, I reckon the guy has great skills but definately lacks pace, thats why Richmond let him go.
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Damien
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Pugsville
Jamie Tape - ok to good skills (inc nice mark) slow but his greatest asset is his ability to read the play, attack the ball create the turnover by beating his man to the ball superior judgement. Unfortunately this means his best suited to being an attacking half-back flank without the advantage of pace as rebound back flankers provide a lot of drive by running hard. His other problem is that with a full list Burns, Wasly are first picked for the job with Croscia, Freeborn also extremely capable as well as younger players like jacotine or licura. (Yes and if bucks played there he'd be the best there is) So that is why I rate him as borderline for delistment.
Paul Williams - I bet sheedy didn't tag him in the game earlier in the year. He is a senior player with a ton of talent. A player of explosive and dammaging impact when he's hot. Just hasn't looked like being able to cope with the responsiblilty and attention (taggers and such) that has come to him scince he rise to be the talent he is. Has not lived up to his own talent, consistancy and inability to deal with some tagging and pressure (not all the time just far too often) just look at the jobs Libba has done on him. If he could somehow get over that he would be a champion, but he's been at that level of performance for a while. I'd love to see him kick on and be kick that 30 goals a year. Best played wing/centre running thru the centre and either booting it from 40-50 or psssing, but explosive pace out of midfield hasn't defensive skils to play in the back line. I wouldn't trade him unless some serious young talent was on offer.
I'm on the steal Ben Graham band wagon, a quality tall would relive the pressure on the backline, presti/schuabs playing on the second tall would do alright most of the time, Michael could pick on someone his own size. With Tarrent, Kinnear, The Rocca Brothers, (and Fraser and Pavlich) theere is enough tall forward talent. The young midfield show good promise, we'll see but King, Betheras, Davis, Orchard, Licura, Lane, Willims, Buckley is a fair range of talent and abilities ( add maybe Adkins and Rhycce Shaw).
Go pies. Pugs.
ps. Lee Walker is a personal favourite, the great man, the greatest sporting tradegdy in this country since Bruce Ried.I hope somehow he can manage a senior game , be wrapped in he dominated and we kept him but tjhat's the heart, the head says he's gone. sad.
Paul Williams - I bet sheedy didn't tag him in the game earlier in the year. He is a senior player with a ton of talent. A player of explosive and dammaging impact when he's hot. Just hasn't looked like being able to cope with the responsiblilty and attention (taggers and such) that has come to him scince he rise to be the talent he is. Has not lived up to his own talent, consistancy and inability to deal with some tagging and pressure (not all the time just far too often) just look at the jobs Libba has done on him. If he could somehow get over that he would be a champion, but he's been at that level of performance for a while. I'd love to see him kick on and be kick that 30 goals a year. Best played wing/centre running thru the centre and either booting it from 40-50 or psssing, but explosive pace out of midfield hasn't defensive skils to play in the back line. I wouldn't trade him unless some serious young talent was on offer.
I'm on the steal Ben Graham band wagon, a quality tall would relive the pressure on the backline, presti/schuabs playing on the second tall would do alright most of the time, Michael could pick on someone his own size. With Tarrent, Kinnear, The Rocca Brothers, (and Fraser and Pavlich) theere is enough tall forward talent. The young midfield show good promise, we'll see but King, Betheras, Davis, Orchard, Licura, Lane, Willims, Buckley is a fair range of talent and abilities ( add maybe Adkins and Rhycce Shaw).
Go pies. Pugs.
ps. Lee Walker is a personal favourite, the great man, the greatest sporting tradegdy in this country since Bruce Ried.I hope somehow he can manage a senior game , be wrapped in he dominated and we kept him but tjhat's the heart, the head says he's gone. sad.
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foxy
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willo is just struggling because the side he's playing in isn't that good. well it's not good right now anyway. but think if he was in a team like north, he'd be ten times the player david king is, and king plays the game exactly like willo does.
i think saturday night will be a learning experience for presti. i mean it seemed as though he was doing ok; he seemed to get the front spot most of the time. when cummings is on the lead and the eagles deliver it well you can't stop him.
personally i think tape still has a lot to offer. let's not forget how good he was for the tigers in 95-96.
the one thing you can't argue about patto is that he's bloody goal hungry, and that's what we need. that's why i like mal in the forward line, he seems so crazy, especially when he's wearing those long sleeves. to have tarrant/kinnear/michael as a half-forward line would be pure athleticism personified. throw pebbles in there with the occassional 80-metre goal, that sav guy at FF kicking a quiet 200, and browny providing some bite around the packs, and that's a lovely forward line. but i always seem to go on about the forward line.
basically, the day when we can stop depending on bucks as a midfielder and put him on a half-back flank, then we know we've got a hell of a team. he may be able to find the ball, but i don't think he's totally suited to be a follower. big booming kicks into the forward line aren't always the best option.
by the way, i'm hoping to god they put wasley back in the team this week. put him on a half-back flank and keep him there!
i think saturday night will be a learning experience for presti. i mean it seemed as though he was doing ok; he seemed to get the front spot most of the time. when cummings is on the lead and the eagles deliver it well you can't stop him.
personally i think tape still has a lot to offer. let's not forget how good he was for the tigers in 95-96.
the one thing you can't argue about patto is that he's bloody goal hungry, and that's what we need. that's why i like mal in the forward line, he seems so crazy, especially when he's wearing those long sleeves. to have tarrant/kinnear/michael as a half-forward line would be pure athleticism personified. throw pebbles in there with the occassional 80-metre goal, that sav guy at FF kicking a quiet 200, and browny providing some bite around the packs, and that's a lovely forward line. but i always seem to go on about the forward line.
basically, the day when we can stop depending on bucks as a midfielder and put him on a half-back flank, then we know we've got a hell of a team. he may be able to find the ball, but i don't think he's totally suited to be a follower. big booming kicks into the forward line aren't always the best option.
by the way, i'm hoping to god they put wasley back in the team this week. put him on a half-back flank and keep him there!
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Mich@el
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The only two players that I would like to see removed from Collingwood are Wild and Richardson. It's as simple as that.
Other's which haven't impressed me in recent times have been:
>Raso, I may be being a bit harsh but I can only see his speed as any real asset. Perhaps he hasn't really been given a proper chance.
>Watson, his form seems to be worsening each year. This year though he hasn't been given a go, and I have his number on my back so I still feel some sort of loyalty towards him. I would like to see him back in the Seniors asap, to resurrect his career.
>Shauble, hasn't looked good this season. But I tend to agree with the view of him perhaps feeling intimidated by the ensusiasm of the youngsters.
>Olarenshaw. Early in the year he just looked terrible. His injuries haven't really allowed him to prove himself.
>Tape. Hasn't really done enough.
>Walker. 1:It would be damn fantastic to see him get back to the seniors. 2: Even better if he performs well. But every time I visualise this, I keep seeing him breaking down. I'm just too scared, he just seems to fragile.
The players bagged in this topic that I would like to see stay at the club are: Patterson, Crow, Freeborn, Jacotine, Orchard, Crow, McDonald, Godden, Tuckey, Scotland, Fuller and Prestigiacomo.
I was so pumped up when I found out we had got Orchard back, it was like the recruiting meat heads had reversed one of those horrible mistakes. I really can't agree with B & W Blood at all(except on Wild and Richo), if you're reading this mate, I think you are mad.
Other's which haven't impressed me in recent times have been:
>Raso, I may be being a bit harsh but I can only see his speed as any real asset. Perhaps he hasn't really been given a proper chance.
>Watson, his form seems to be worsening each year. This year though he hasn't been given a go, and I have his number on my back so I still feel some sort of loyalty towards him. I would like to see him back in the Seniors asap, to resurrect his career.
>Shauble, hasn't looked good this season. But I tend to agree with the view of him perhaps feeling intimidated by the ensusiasm of the youngsters.
>Olarenshaw. Early in the year he just looked terrible. His injuries haven't really allowed him to prove himself.
>Tape. Hasn't really done enough.
>Walker. 1:It would be damn fantastic to see him get back to the seniors. 2: Even better if he performs well. But every time I visualise this, I keep seeing him breaking down. I'm just too scared, he just seems to fragile.
The players bagged in this topic that I would like to see stay at the club are: Patterson, Crow, Freeborn, Jacotine, Orchard, Crow, McDonald, Godden, Tuckey, Scotland, Fuller and Prestigiacomo.
I was so pumped up when I found out we had got Orchard back, it was like the recruiting meat heads had reversed one of those horrible mistakes. I really can't agree with B & W Blood at all(except on Wild and Richo), if you're reading this mate, I think you are mad.
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foxy
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why get rid of richo? the guy isn't that bad. we need a mobile tall, and he's about all we've got in that department (except for wasley, but he's not that tall). in any case, if we get malthouse next year you can expect some pretty harsh decisions. mick isn't one to get attached to players, he likes to make the hard decisions from a distance. in other words, the likes of mcdonald, wild, patto, crow, walker will undoubtedly go. i reckon watto deserves another chance though, he's always had a lot of potential, and tape and schaubs don't deserve the axe. whilst we do have a lot of young forward options, mick will be looking to build a team around a strong defence. pebbles will probably become a permanent full-back, presti a half-back flanker, schaubs on another flank, burnsy in a pocket, and if we get ben graham, we could put him at CHB. other than them we're in need of some good defenders. tape is very desperate but needs to work on his kicking - i still rate him as one of the safest marks in the comp. watto probably deserves a run in defence, that's where he's played his best footy. anyway enough from me.
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Pugsville
As far as delisting players, you gotta ask the question Is this guy in our best 22? If not how much more will he improve?
We proably need to delist 4-7 players. I would get rid of around 5. Wilde, McDonald, Crow these guys are under the pump because they have been around a far time and we know what they are capable of. Now Look at the guys playing around the centre and who are you going to drop to give this guys a game? Licura, Orcahrd, Davis, King, Willow, Bucks, Lane, Betharas? The young guys have shown quite a bit and can reasobly be expected to improve. Wasly, Scotland, Adkins, Jacotine and maybe Rhycce Shaw can be expected to vie for a spot in the midfield. So I'd axe waston, wild, walker, crow, Mcdonald and maybe oattison. They are have given good service to the club (Lee Wlaker if only as a shining example of a guy who won't lie down no matter what the cruel fates do) Just you gotta look ahead, Collingwood will not be a real contender for about two years. Two years these kids will be kicking on, crow and macdonald will be on the way out. They may well play as good as the kids now but we will be better off developing these kids. I think Olerensahw and Pattison will hang on but be lucky. The bigger blokes, Preti, Schaubs, need more time, Presti has beaten Mathew Richardson, Nick Holland and Chris Grant. They are not flankers unless the other side is putting slow big guys for them to play on. We need at least two tall defenders plus two talls with flexiablity thats Presti, Schaubs plus Anthony and Richo. Veanables may break in, but that aside we couldn't delist the talls without picking up someone to take their place.
Pugs.
We proably need to delist 4-7 players. I would get rid of around 5. Wilde, McDonald, Crow these guys are under the pump because they have been around a far time and we know what they are capable of. Now Look at the guys playing around the centre and who are you going to drop to give this guys a game? Licura, Orcahrd, Davis, King, Willow, Bucks, Lane, Betharas? The young guys have shown quite a bit and can reasobly be expected to improve. Wasly, Scotland, Adkins, Jacotine and maybe Rhycce Shaw can be expected to vie for a spot in the midfield. So I'd axe waston, wild, walker, crow, Mcdonald and maybe oattison. They are have given good service to the club (Lee Wlaker if only as a shining example of a guy who won't lie down no matter what the cruel fates do) Just you gotta look ahead, Collingwood will not be a real contender for about two years. Two years these kids will be kicking on, crow and macdonald will be on the way out. They may well play as good as the kids now but we will be better off developing these kids. I think Olerensahw and Pattison will hang on but be lucky. The bigger blokes, Preti, Schaubs, need more time, Presti has beaten Mathew Richardson, Nick Holland and Chris Grant. They are not flankers unless the other side is putting slow big guys for them to play on. We need at least two tall defenders plus two talls with flexiablity thats Presti, Schaubs plus Anthony and Richo. Veanables may break in, but that aside we couldn't delist the talls without picking up someone to take their place.
Pugs.
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foxy
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i think the guys who should really get a spot in the on-ball department are orchard, king, betho, and jacotine. orchard and king are rovers and nothing else, betho is developing into a fine ruck-rover, and jacotine shows a lot of courage and leadership in around the packs, plus he's a good mark (and if he needs a rest he's a bloody good goalsneak in a FP). wasley isn't an on-baller, he's the ideal wingman, very very quick and a fair link player. needs to fill the role of crosisca, only with more pace and flair. licuria shouldn't be a midfielder, i've been impressed with him as a running HBF, along with willo on another flank. lane should control one wing, as he's about the best link player we have (aside from crosisca but he's getting tired), and scotland is a good option as a back-up wingman if wazza or lane is out of form. lockyer should play in a BP, as he's very cool under pressure, and like tarrant he always takes his time to find an option. presti should develop into a CHB, and schaubs should be a FB, as he has no pace, and that's where he played his best footy as a rookie. pebbles as a floating tall in the backline sounds like a good idea. i don't think mal should be put back in the defence; from what's he shown as a HFF in the last few weeks i'd keep him there, he's actually surprised me with his marking and kicking skills. he and tarrant (the long-sleeve guernsy boys) should develop into a lethal combination, along with high-flying ben kinnear. so many options! senior players that should be kept (to help the young players) are monky, richo, patto (for sheer courage), olarenshaw (he can play), freeborn (consistent), tape, watto (lots of potential), mcdonald (very under-rated), crosisca and browny for sheer inspiration. i think fuller needs to go, but raso has shown some slick skills, so he needs to stay. anyway i've written too much, i'm getting addicted.
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Damien
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Foxy, I think your obsession with James Wasley has cooked you brain. How can you say that Shane Watson has "potential".....I watched him train with the senior side in Grand Final week 1990 as a 17 year old. Back then he had potential, but that was nearly ten bloody years ago. How long do you wanna wait.
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foxy
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Mr_Plow
Thanks for that addition Fatty - Chris Curran??? is that a suggestion for our new coach?????
Yeah Foxy i think your gonna have to let go of Shane Watson. Anyway as the saying goes -if you love something set it free.
I went through our list the other night and i reckon there's about 13 players that could be pushed so his only chance is if he's one of the lucky ones they decide to keep.
But your right that Mal Michael has looked promising on the forward line.
And James Wasley is quick but he hasn't yet displayed consistency in the seniors.
Yeah Foxy i think your gonna have to let go of Shane Watson. Anyway as the saying goes -if you love something set it free.
I went through our list the other night and i reckon there's about 13 players that could be pushed so his only chance is if he's one of the lucky ones they decide to keep.
But your right that Mal Michael has looked promising on the forward line.
And James Wasley is quick but he hasn't yet displayed consistency in the seniors.
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paul
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I we going to take advantage of the priority draft picks we need to delist 4 players(2 now and two pre season). To pick up R.Shaw we need to delist another.
Depending on the percieved depth of talent available in the draft, we may want up to another 3 picks. In the past we have also promoted one of our rookies. If this continues that is another delisting.
This totals 9 delistings.
Walker may be safe until the pre-season draft if it is expected that he could possibly play.
The other delistings will depend as much on the type (quality, readiness, experience, size etc) of the replacements available than on talent (or lack of it)of the present list alone. That is, its not much use shedding Richo, Tuckey and Smith if there is a shortage of quality talls available in the draft.
One point that hasn't been mentioned in this debate is the sense of expectation we had at the start of the season regarding Sav playing in the ruck. If he is expected to play well there next season, this adds another perspective to draft.
Now, having baffled myself and probably most of you, I will list the players I believe are the "most able to be replaced" through draft picks or trades. Some younger players have obviously been excluded because they have a greater propensity to develop. I have excluded our 3 veterans, one of whom may go.
McDonald
Raso
Patterson
Wild
Walker (see above)
Smith
Richardson
Schauble
Watson
Fuller
Crow
Tape
Venebales
Some of the players with 5 to 10 years experience (Richo, Schauble, Watson, Tape)may be safe because they will be the depth and experience that each club needs to be able to call on now and then. Having expereinced players in the magoos this year has proven successful in the accelerated learning of the youngsters and will give them some September action.
If we are to promote a rookie this year, it will possibly be one of the potential key position players, Manfield or Kirwen.
Last year we drafeted Rupert. Our regular supp-list player Sailsbury has been amonst the best often and could prove a worthy late draft. Once again, it depends on who else is available.
Depending on the percieved depth of talent available in the draft, we may want up to another 3 picks. In the past we have also promoted one of our rookies. If this continues that is another delisting.
This totals 9 delistings.
Walker may be safe until the pre-season draft if it is expected that he could possibly play.
The other delistings will depend as much on the type (quality, readiness, experience, size etc) of the replacements available than on talent (or lack of it)of the present list alone. That is, its not much use shedding Richo, Tuckey and Smith if there is a shortage of quality talls available in the draft.
One point that hasn't been mentioned in this debate is the sense of expectation we had at the start of the season regarding Sav playing in the ruck. If he is expected to play well there next season, this adds another perspective to draft.
Now, having baffled myself and probably most of you, I will list the players I believe are the "most able to be replaced" through draft picks or trades. Some younger players have obviously been excluded because they have a greater propensity to develop. I have excluded our 3 veterans, one of whom may go.
McDonald
Raso
Patterson
Wild
Walker (see above)
Smith
Richardson
Schauble
Watson
Fuller
Crow
Tape
Venebales
Some of the players with 5 to 10 years experience (Richo, Schauble, Watson, Tape)may be safe because they will be the depth and experience that each club needs to be able to call on now and then. Having expereinced players in the magoos this year has proven successful in the accelerated learning of the youngsters and will give them some September action.
If we are to promote a rookie this year, it will possibly be one of the potential key position players, Manfield or Kirwen.
Last year we drafeted Rupert. Our regular supp-list player Sailsbury has been amonst the best often and could prove a worthy late draft. Once again, it depends on who else is available.