Charlie, See below, my post from July 30 this year:
"With all the current debate about who we should delist/trade and who we should keep, something hit home while reading James Hird's article in Wednesday's Herald-Sun.
He listed Heffernan, Solomon, Rioli, Johnson and Prior as the bottom five players in Essendon's best 22 and Power, Lawrence, Keating Black and Johnson as the last five players in Brisbane's best 22.
Any of these guys would walk into our best 22.
My point is, as a group of supporters we have sub-consciously allowed our idea of an acceptable standard of player to drop due to several years of poor on-field performance.
This becomes obvious when people start trying to justify keeping the likes of Patterson, Wild, McDonald, Crow, Watson, Richardson and Tape.
While I'm sure these guys are all good blokes and there is some feeling of loyalty to them simply because they have donned the black and white jumper, the fact is these guys form the nucleus of the second 11 of our best 22 and are simply not up to the task and should go.
It could be argued that Schauble, Presti, Godden, Olarenshaw and Orchard should also be added to this list, however this will depend on a lot of other factors, ie: how the draft pans out and who wants to trade.
As for the 'kids', while there is no doubt that they will not all make it, most have shown enough to justify another season before a decision is made on their future."
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I rest my case.....I hope Eddie and Co. are ruthless in their pursuit of any player that there is a remote chance of getting, ie: Colbert, Everitt, Gherig etc...
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Damien
trade bait
Moderator: bbmods
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Mick
Charlie
You are absolutely spot on with your assessments. For the Club to go forward all sections of the Club must be assessed against the best. We fall into the trap of comparing our players with other pies players.
For a team that has so many good young players why is it that we only scored 2 rising star nominations? This should be a measuring stick of the recruiting department's performance.
As far as quality is concerned we often confuse the players best games as being their average level of performance. With the exception of Buckley and only Buckley no other player on our list has performed consistently to their ability. Not one. Logically they are all tradeable. Adelaide - back to back premiers have set a list of only 6 untouchables. Why because the rest may have peaked at the right time in the past but cannot produce it consistently. They've stopped dreaming about how good Shane Ellen was that day and maybe, just maybe he can do it again and realised that guys like MacLeod will and have done it again and they are better people to build the club around.
I'll provide a Collingwood example. Scott Burns. We all love his attack on the footy but he is not a star player in the league. He has not put together a full season with injury and suspension and the form dips that go with such abscences, are we really getting value? Yet everyone on this board would rate him in their top 5 pies players. He would not make the top 10-15 in the best teams. Compare to Scott Welsh of the Kangas - he blitzed us this year yet is likely to be traded at the end of the year and a 50-50 chance to finish in the seniors this year. Contrast the reaction we would have given to Tarrant if he'd kicked as many. We'd have him pencilled in as a champion. Likewise this buzz about getting Dew from Port - why? He was an emergency in the 7th placed side. He kicked one bag. Port want to let him go. But we're excited because its those one-off cameos that we tolerate as player potential at our own Club.
Finally, measuring where a player finishes in the Copeland is an irrelevancy. We all hate Mike Sheehan but things like his top 50 players are 80% right. Media player awards and brownlow votes all stack up. Have a look at how we go in all these before people accept our list as being quality.
I believe MM and crew will bring that hard nosed approach of assessment to the Club. The board need to. Salary negotiations must be easy at CFC.
You are absolutely spot on with your assessments. For the Club to go forward all sections of the Club must be assessed against the best. We fall into the trap of comparing our players with other pies players.
For a team that has so many good young players why is it that we only scored 2 rising star nominations? This should be a measuring stick of the recruiting department's performance.
As far as quality is concerned we often confuse the players best games as being their average level of performance. With the exception of Buckley and only Buckley no other player on our list has performed consistently to their ability. Not one. Logically they are all tradeable. Adelaide - back to back premiers have set a list of only 6 untouchables. Why because the rest may have peaked at the right time in the past but cannot produce it consistently. They've stopped dreaming about how good Shane Ellen was that day and maybe, just maybe he can do it again and realised that guys like MacLeod will and have done it again and they are better people to build the club around.
I'll provide a Collingwood example. Scott Burns. We all love his attack on the footy but he is not a star player in the league. He has not put together a full season with injury and suspension and the form dips that go with such abscences, are we really getting value? Yet everyone on this board would rate him in their top 5 pies players. He would not make the top 10-15 in the best teams. Compare to Scott Welsh of the Kangas - he blitzed us this year yet is likely to be traded at the end of the year and a 50-50 chance to finish in the seniors this year. Contrast the reaction we would have given to Tarrant if he'd kicked as many. We'd have him pencilled in as a champion. Likewise this buzz about getting Dew from Port - why? He was an emergency in the 7th placed side. He kicked one bag. Port want to let him go. But we're excited because its those one-off cameos that we tolerate as player potential at our own Club.
Finally, measuring where a player finishes in the Copeland is an irrelevancy. We all hate Mike Sheehan but things like his top 50 players are 80% right. Media player awards and brownlow votes all stack up. Have a look at how we go in all these before people accept our list as being quality.
I believe MM and crew will bring that hard nosed approach of assessment to the Club. The board need to. Salary negotiations must be easy at CFC.
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Damien
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Mick,
Sorry mate but you've lost the plot. Scott Burns would easily walk into the top 15 of every AFL club.
You then argue that we confuse a players best performance with his average output level, then proceed to talk about Welsh from North and his performance in one game..
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Damien
Sorry mate but you've lost the plot. Scott Burns would easily walk into the top 15 of every AFL club.
You then argue that we confuse a players best performance with his average output level, then proceed to talk about Welsh from North and his performance in one game..
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Damien
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Pugsville
Compare wirrapounda, cousisns, read, and whoever with our best four up and coming not patterosn, wild, and crow who will all go.
Tarrent, King, Davis, Orchard. Now none of them are as developed or as good as the WC players rights now, but all have played good seasons. Orcahrd is under rated. HE played a damm fine game on Peter Materia (he's a shadow of his former self but still a handy player). Burns is proably the second best player at collingwood. He's hard at the ball, reads the play well and puts in every week. There are others with talent and wraps who don't. Paul Williams for example. Richardson is an average hack footballer but until we have a better No2 ruck he should stay. Tuckey, Gardiner have both not reached the required level, I'm don't think you should be hasty on big blokes so another year for those two. Richo is much maligned but can play well in the ruck, defence, or up forward. When we have a better mobile, versitile big man then by all means delist him, but not until there is a betetr man to take his place. When thinking about delisting and getting rid of players work out who our best 22 by position are then nominate a few guys to cover injuries and a couple of devlopment players. Then with the rest just ask when will this guy be in our best 22. If they are marginal with little chance of improvememt then delist. Richo is up against Tucky and Gardiner and the jury is still out. How many games did monkey play this year? We need a ruck for the futiure and we also need a mobile ruck option (pefferable one who can play elsewhere as well, Mathew Francis should have gone a lot quicker very average ruck unlikely to play anywhere else. )
pugsville
Tarrent, King, Davis, Orchard. Now none of them are as developed or as good as the WC players rights now, but all have played good seasons. Orcahrd is under rated. HE played a damm fine game on Peter Materia (he's a shadow of his former self but still a handy player). Burns is proably the second best player at collingwood. He's hard at the ball, reads the play well and puts in every week. There are others with talent and wraps who don't. Paul Williams for example. Richardson is an average hack footballer but until we have a better No2 ruck he should stay. Tuckey, Gardiner have both not reached the required level, I'm don't think you should be hasty on big blokes so another year for those two. Richo is much maligned but can play well in the ruck, defence, or up forward. When we have a better mobile, versitile big man then by all means delist him, but not until there is a betetr man to take his place. When thinking about delisting and getting rid of players work out who our best 22 by position are then nominate a few guys to cover injuries and a couple of devlopment players. Then with the rest just ask when will this guy be in our best 22. If they are marginal with little chance of improvememt then delist. Richo is up against Tucky and Gardiner and the jury is still out. How many games did monkey play this year? We need a ruck for the futiure and we also need a mobile ruck option (pefferable one who can play elsewhere as well, Mathew Francis should have gone a lot quicker very average ruck unlikely to play anywhere else. )
pugsville
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Mr_Plow
First of all perfect Paul Williams is a great player and would be one of the top players in the game if he was receiving more of the ball at a club like North.
And Scott Burns is very underatted and would be in the top 5 of most clubs in the league.
Now as for keeping guys like Richardson, well that just goes against the good points that were made by Charlie.
Richo is so pathetic its just not funny. I mean what is meant to be his best position?
Ruck? his best game was against Richmond this year and even then he still didn't have as many hit-outs as Gale. Have you ever noticed that he NEVER gets more than 20 hitouts.
Sure besides Monky we dont have any other options at the moment. But i can tell you there are many many ruckman playing in comps like the WAFL and the SANFL who are at least worth a shot.
Richo is just one example but the bottom line is we dont have to persist with inferior players even if it mean making 10-15 changes in our squad.
And Scott Burns is very underatted and would be in the top 5 of most clubs in the league.
Now as for keeping guys like Richardson, well that just goes against the good points that were made by Charlie.
Richo is so pathetic its just not funny. I mean what is meant to be his best position?
Ruck? his best game was against Richmond this year and even then he still didn't have as many hit-outs as Gale. Have you ever noticed that he NEVER gets more than 20 hitouts.
Sure besides Monky we dont have any other options at the moment. But i can tell you there are many many ruckman playing in comps like the WAFL and the SANFL who are at least worth a shot.
Richo is just one example but the bottom line is we dont have to persist with inferior players even if it mean making 10-15 changes in our squad.
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ZED
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Charlie
I thought I may have ruffled a few feathers, but its good to see how many of us really appreciate our clubs predicament. I felt we really started to get soft about our clubs (players) real worth.
I find it amusing to read comments such as :
1. He needs more time (4 yr player)
2. Needs backup (Senior Player)
3. Needs to improve skill (23 yr old AFL Player)
4. Played a good game in 1997 round 3
etc. etc.
I tend to see it this way :
1. Been here 3 years - done nothing - Trade / delist.
2. Senior player not standing up when needed.
3. 23 no skill - Trade / delist
4. Inconsistant - plenty of opportunity - trade / delist.
We may feel shortchanged short term, but in the long term we wont have excuses - WE WILL HAVE RESULTS.
I find it amusing to read comments such as :
1. He needs more time (4 yr player)
2. Needs backup (Senior Player)
3. Needs to improve skill (23 yr old AFL Player)
4. Played a good game in 1997 round 3
etc. etc.
I tend to see it this way :
1. Been here 3 years - done nothing - Trade / delist.
2. Senior player not standing up when needed.
3. 23 no skill - Trade / delist
4. Inconsistant - plenty of opportunity - trade / delist.
We may feel shortchanged short term, but in the long term we wont have excuses - WE WILL HAVE RESULTS.
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ZED
YES I WANT TO USE MY MEMBERSHIP IN SEPTEMBER AND I WILL RESPECT ANY COACH WHO COMES IN AND CAN ACHIEVE THIS IN ANY WAY .US FANS ARE GOING TO HAVE TO BITE OUR TONGUES AND LET EDDIE & CO ACHIEVE OUR COMMON GOAL IN ANY WAY THEY DEEM FIT. I MUST ADMIT IT IS COMFORTING TO KNOW EDDIE IS JUST AS HUNGRY AS WE ARE.
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I@n S
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We better keep Willo for next year. He is one of our best players and just because we had a bad year does not mean its time to ditch him. One of the problems I have noticed over the last two or three years is that when we trade our players to other clubs, they end up turning into realy good players at other clubs, so be careful who you trade Collingwood... Not Willo please!!!!
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Mick
to foxy
I've no argument about the way Burnsy goes about it - just how much value we get from him - how many games a year we get out of him.
to Damien
I still believe you are inflating Burns' real value. He'd probably make top 15 but not top 10 in too many teams. He only plays 15 games a year - 5 great ones, 5 solid ones & 5 sluggish ones coming back from injury and suspension. Ask any opposition supporters how they rate him and I'll guarantee they wouldn't put him in their top bracket.
My Welsh argument was to highlight how easily excitable we get when a young player does anything. There is so much talk here about guys like Tarrant, Kinnear, Wasley etc - in real footy terms they have achieved little. We get excited by one-offs and flashes of brilliance rather than a level of sustained performance indicating the maturity to develop into a top player. If Tarrant produced a 5 goal effort there would be so much crap written about him on this site you'd think he'd won the Brownlow. In contrast North have a deeper list and better performance and thus don't get excited as easily - hell they only got excited about Brent Harvey when he kicked a bag in the wet for the Big V.
Agree we need a hard man but our first criteria when picking blokes is that they should be able to play footy. Hotton couldn't. James couldn't. Kelly got the best out of himself and could play. Venables can't and should never have been put on the list. This really indicates how desparate we are when you're relying on a reserves hack to be the main enforcer in your senior side. That's almost as bad as expecting a bloke who's had 4 knee recos to slot in to CHF after a year and a half out.
I've no argument about the way Burnsy goes about it - just how much value we get from him - how many games a year we get out of him.
to Damien
I still believe you are inflating Burns' real value. He'd probably make top 15 but not top 10 in too many teams. He only plays 15 games a year - 5 great ones, 5 solid ones & 5 sluggish ones coming back from injury and suspension. Ask any opposition supporters how they rate him and I'll guarantee they wouldn't put him in their top bracket.
My Welsh argument was to highlight how easily excitable we get when a young player does anything. There is so much talk here about guys like Tarrant, Kinnear, Wasley etc - in real footy terms they have achieved little. We get excited by one-offs and flashes of brilliance rather than a level of sustained performance indicating the maturity to develop into a top player. If Tarrant produced a 5 goal effort there would be so much crap written about him on this site you'd think he'd won the Brownlow. In contrast North have a deeper list and better performance and thus don't get excited as easily - hell they only got excited about Brent Harvey when he kicked a bag in the wet for the Big V.
Agree we need a hard man but our first criteria when picking blokes is that they should be able to play footy. Hotton couldn't. James couldn't. Kelly got the best out of himself and could play. Venables can't and should never have been put on the list. This really indicates how desparate we are when you're relying on a reserves hack to be the main enforcer in your senior side. That's almost as bad as expecting a bloke who's had 4 knee recos to slot in to CHF after a year and a half out.
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Damien
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I still don't really get your argument on Burnsy Mick, you're now conceeding that he'd get in the top 15 of most lists. The fact that he's top 5 on our list and only top 10 or 15 on other lists sums up our postion on the ladder. Without a doubt, Bucks is our only player that would make top 5 on the top clubs' lists. As far as value goes, Burnsy is still well ahead of james Hird.
In regard to the excitement generated by a youngster like Chris Tarrant, I think you need to look at it in context. Collingwood supporters have had bugger all to cheer about in what has been a long and painful season. We have spent far more time talking about the future than the present on this BB this year because that has got us through a bleak year on the field.
In regard to the hitman issue, the answer is there in our face and has frustrated us for years. We have two of the biggest lumps in the AFL in the form of the Roccas. If only someone at the club could get them angry, we'd be laughing. All Sav has to do is run through a few guys on the lead and backmen would stop filling the hole in front of FF. Anthony showed some real good signs in this area in the last few games, lets hope it continues next year.
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Damien
In regard to the excitement generated by a youngster like Chris Tarrant, I think you need to look at it in context. Collingwood supporters have had bugger all to cheer about in what has been a long and painful season. We have spent far more time talking about the future than the present on this BB this year because that has got us through a bleak year on the field.
In regard to the hitman issue, the answer is there in our face and has frustrated us for years. We have two of the biggest lumps in the AFL in the form of the Roccas. If only someone at the club could get them angry, we'd be laughing. All Sav has to do is run through a few guys on the lead and backmen would stop filling the hole in front of FF. Anthony showed some real good signs in this area in the last few games, lets hope it continues next year.
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Damien
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Pugsville
About agression and the roccas, it's savs biggest problem he needs to fire up and really use his size to his advantage, he does occassionaly but not often enoough, it's like he's shy and apoligetic about being big. Like it should be their problem. Anthony has really stepped up this year in tyhat department laying some good hip and shoulders and letting them know he is about.
pugs
pugs
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foxy
- Posts: 1301
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- Location: melbourne
anthony's bump on chris scott in the first quarter against the lions in the last round was the only highlight of the day. he decked him; let's not forget that scott is a pretty solid guy. both the roccas need to do that a hell of a lot more often - anthony in defence and sav in attack. if they do then our 'hitman' problem is solved. and mick - who cares if we get excited about young players who show some brilliance? why not? about time we hyped ourselves up a bit. if anything our 'hype' is substantiated though - in the words of mick mcguane, tarrant is his 'no.1 youngster', according to kevin sheedy, wasley is a 'very special player and i'm glad the pies picked him', and dermie said 'collingwood need to base their future around a player like wasley', and steve quartermain said 'you won't catch wasley on a spring day' (whatever the hell that means). want some more 'hype'? nick davis is, in the eyes of pete mckenna, going to be a 'very special player', tuckey, according to paul couch, can 'kick it a country mile', tarks, according to gerard healy, 'has a very very cool head for his age', brad oborne will be, according to healy again, 'every bit as good as his dad', presti has, according to mcguane, 'come on in every facet of the game and is beginning to use his instincts', and frankie raso showed that he 'has some very slick ground-level skills', according to that cornes guy. i didn't say a word.
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Charlie
Wow,
Foxy I am really impressed. its o.k. to remember 1 or 2 things - but you win , hands down. Do you write all this stuff on your bedroom ceiling ?. I agree we have a great bunch of young players with potential, and most of those comments I believe are true, but we can't always believe eveything we hear or read.
Add this to your re/collection : do you remember what Dermie said a couple of years back on the Footy show ?
"Aaron James will be another Wayne Carey"
Foxy I am really impressed. its o.k. to remember 1 or 2 things - but you win , hands down. Do you write all this stuff on your bedroom ceiling ?. I agree we have a great bunch of young players with potential, and most of those comments I believe are true, but we can't always believe eveything we hear or read.
Add this to your re/collection : do you remember what Dermie said a couple of years back on the Footy show ?
"Aaron James will be another Wayne Carey"