Melbourne CBD incident. 6 dead. Many more injured.

[Tannin]

Nevertheless, there is a strong link between deluded, non-rational belief structures (such as religion) and deluded, non-rational behaviour. Whether it is a causal link, well, that's another question. Does the delusional thinking pattern cause the belief? Or does the belief cause the broader delusional thinking?

[Mugwump]

^ really ? I am not a religious believer, but I'd say deranged and hateful people are as likely to fasten themselves to political causes as religion. I don't think one can necessarily blame politics as such for that , nor do I think one can necessarily blame religion as such.

I do discern a striking similarity between this act and video violence such as grand theft auto. I think that, plus drugs, is a more likely source of this incident, prima facie, but we'll see, I guess.

[Culprit]

Overall I am pretty appalled with the finger pointing at individuals over this tragic incident. To single out anyone other than the defendant is just plain ignorant. The system as a whole is at fault and I am hoping that all sides come together and fix it but alas they will all to continue run with their single political agendas and fix nothing.

[David]

The criteria for withholding bail is:

The court will refuse bail if there is an unacceptable risk that the person charged will not be appear on the specified day at court, or when it is thought that the person may commit other offences whilst on bail, endanger the public, interfere with witnesses or otherwise obstruct the course of justice.

https://www.magistratescourt.vic.gov.au ... y-and-bail

Bolding mine.

Unacceptable risk does not equal "any risk". If it did, no one would get bail

The second part has some room for discretion, but how do you apply it? Do you hold someone charged with non-violent burglary in remand until their court date because their history shows they are likely to do it again, or do you just focus on people with a history of violence?

Keep in mind, as tannin once pointed out, you can be charged with Assault without actually laying a finger on a person.

I'd be prepared to consider this cnut an aberration and i don't think you can build a system to cater for aberrations without penalising a lot of people who don't deserve it.

I agree with this, and think that the current criteria for assessing bail is more or less exactly as it should be. How that is interpreted and whether defendants need less benefit of doubt is another question. But any shift in policy in that regard will require an increase in resources, bigger remand centres and the like. I also fear that it will end up with something blunt and categorical like Tannin is proposing, which is always the politician's solution to subtle (real or perceived) problems with the justice system.

[think positive]

It's not about this case, Stui. It's about the hundreds of serious violent criminals who are released into the community on bail each year, and the terrible consequences this has.

It may well be that the Bourke Street Scum would have got bail anyway (if his domestic violence charges were in fact minor - we don't know that either way) but what we do know is that there are many, many others who are released and reoffend immediately. This has to stop. NOW.

There need to be safeguards in place, of course. There needs to be good, solid evidence that the accused is guilty; there needs to be a threshold of vileness to the crime below which normal bail rules apply; the determination of these things must be up to a court, never the police; and there needs to be reasonable avenue to appeal the denial of bail before a reasonably senior arbiter (magistrate or higher) within a sensibly brief time. (A week, say.)

Does this mean extra magistrates? More work for the courts? Well there are two answers. (1) Who cares? Spend the money you fools! (2) No. When you add up the cost of the reoffending - court time, police time, never mind the cost to the community - you'd probably find that it provides a net saving. But if it doesn't, no matter. It desperately needs doing. Just do it. If you won't do it, piss off and we will vote some other bastard in.

Yeah I wanted to refute Davids post, but this says it all.

I'd rather someone stayed locked up on a minor charge until the proper time can be taken to look at the case, than let another scumbag free. The system is too lenient by far. And the bad guys know it.

[Culprit]

http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/bourk ... twjxy.html


Former Supreme Court judge Paul Coghlan has also been asked to provide urgent advice about additional changes to bail.

Justice Coghlan will be asked to look at various elements of bail over 10 weeks including:

How to balance protection of the community and the presumption of innocence

The appropriateness of current tests for exceptional circumstances, show cause and unacceptable risk

The conduct of bail applications out of hours, including the role of voluntary bail justices

[think positive]

beat me to it, just read this, good news!!

[David]

Actually, so far this is pretty reasonable:

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-n ... -bail-laws

[Skids]

[David]

^ The register more or less serves as a form of house arrest anyway. This parole board decision may not satisfy your cravings for punishment but will probably serve the community better in the long run.

(As for the part you've bolded, I can only imagine that drugs or alcohol were a factor in the offending, hence the offender's ongoing sobriety is seen as having been rehabilitative.)

[Pies4shaw]

I'm reading a lot of stuff saying this bloke is a muslim and was heard screaming aloha snackbar.... is this confirmed?

Would explain why he stabbed his homosexual brother in the face before his copycat murders.

Being a homophobe with quite extreme anger management problems would explain it much better.

[Skids]

^ The register more or less serves as a form of house arrest anyway. This parole board decision may not satisfy your cravings for punishment but will probably serve the community better in the long run.

(As for the part you've bolded, I can only imagine that drugs or alcohol were a factor in the offending, hence the offender's ongoing sobriety is seen as having been rehabilitative.)

Really? You really believe that

FACT- Paedophiles are likely to re-offend...
FACT- The majority of paedophiles will abuse 45-135 victims each...
(These are frightening statistics)
FACT- At least 1 in 4 girls and 1 in 7 boys will be sexually abused in Australia this year...
FACT- Boys and girls of all ages may be sexually abused...
FACT- In the majority of cases the offender is someone known to the child...
FACT- Paedophiles come from all walks of life and often hold positions of authority...
FACT- They will go to extreme lengths to groom and molest children(extreme premeditation)...
FACT- Child sexual abuse inflicts a life sentence on the victim...
FACT- Only 5% of paedophiles are mentally handicapped...
FACT- 1000's of paedophiles are living in Australian communities...
FACT- Be vigilant- It could be your child next...
FACT- 2/3 of sex-crimes in Australia are against our children...
FACT- Child sexual abuse cases are on the rise...Do we have the basis for an epidemic ?

http://www.mako.org.au/factsstats.html

[watt price tully]

Bail & Parole are pathetically imposed.

Here's one example of a bloke, who's served just over half of his original term (which is also pathetic) being released on parole.
There were over 30 prisoners released from WA prisons in December on parole. ...........

http://www.prisonersreviewboard.wa.gov. ... -6323-4438

The stuff you quoted sounded pretty thorough in terms of bail provisions.

I would have preferred more time inside but he seems to have done pretty well & seems to have been organised into severe restrictions with programmes involved.

The trouble with using MAKO as a source of factual information is that they are a lobby group for victims of child sex abuse - paedophillia etc. While admirable & good on them that can blur their independence about facts & they way they are put together.

Having said that I would cut of the perpetrators balls off but then again that's why I am not part of the law making process - then again may be we should cut all male's balls off between 15-45 & reattach after 45 - be a lot less violence & a lot less sex crimes.

Additional:

The issue with MAKO is that they used the term "Mental Handicap" which always raised my ire as it is an ill informed term.

Do they mean intellectually disabled or psychiatrically ill or both or neither of those?


There's a clear difference between handicap, disability & impairment:

Impairment: any loss or abnormality of psychological, physiological or anatomical structure or function. such as losing your eyes in an accident
Disability: any restriction or lack (resulting from an impairment) of ability to perform an activity in the manner or within the range considered normal for a human being. such as being unable to see
Handicap the barriers put in the way by "society" such as lack of braille at an ATM)

[Lazza]

FACT- Child sexual abuse cases are on the rise...Do we have the basis for an epidemic ?

In a past life having worked in Child Protection, I can tell you that this "fact" is wrong. These days, (especially after mandatory reporting was introduced), there are a hell of a lot more Child sexual abuse cases reported (and that is on the rise), however the vast majority of sexual abuse that happened in the 80's and before was kept "in house" so to speak and was never ever reported to the Police who were the main contact for such things prior to the introduction of Child Protection Services in the late 70's and early 80's, even well before mandatory reporting came in.

[watt price tully]

FACT- Child sexual abuse cases are on the rise...Do we have the basis for an epidemic ?

In a past life having worked in Child Protection, I can tell you that this "fact" is wrong. These days, there are a hell of a lot more Child sexual abuse cases reported (and that is on the rise), however the vast majority of sexual abuse that happened in the 80's and before was kept "in house" so to speak and was never ever reported to the Police who were the main contact for such things prior to the introduction of Child Protection Services in the late 70's and early 80's, even well before mandatory reporting came in.

Correct weight kemosabe.