What made you happy today?

[K]

I agree that the presence of humans only ruins a good picture.

[stui magpie]

Oh Man, I'd give my left nut for that XC Coupe.

[think positive]

boooo!

[K]

the 2014 mental health act, when combined with the updated charter of human rights makes dealing with people who present with potential mental illness problematic.
...

I wasn't intending to do this, but I've now found the Charter of Human Rights and Responsibilities Act 2006, " incorporating amendments as at 1 July 2014". It surely can only strengthen patient/victim rights, though, not hand more power to (e.g.) police, who I do not believe are given any power by the 2014 health act (that is, no power beyond what they already have through law-enforcement acts, whatever they may be ...).

They very much strengthen the rights of the person over the authorities and clinicians.

Well, the Charter of Human Rights and Responsibilities Act basically does not mention health and literally does not mention mental health. It does seem, though, that police would struggle legally to force people to do anything just for appearing to have a mental illness, let alone actually having one, a judgement police have no authority (or skills) to make whatsoever. (The Mental Health Act, which I'll comment on in a later post, does not address police; it addresses registered "health professionals".) Unless the victim has actually committed some offence, I really do not know on what basis they can cart someone off to the ER involuntarily, as WPT's post suggests they may be doing. (The same applies for ambos.) I'm wondering if they are bending the laws (or worse) here.

What the Charter does mention is stuff related to criminality:
e.g.
"21... (2) A person must not be subjected to arbitrary arrest or detention.
(3) A person must not be deprived of his or her liberty except on grounds, and in accordance with procedures, established by law.
(4) A person who is arrested or detained must be informed at the time of arrest or detention of the reason for the arrest or detention and must be promptly informed about any proceedings to be brought against him or her."


I don't see anything in Section 21 addressing whether a person arrested or detained must be read their rights... I kind of hope this is stated somewhere else, i.e. that they have the right to know their rights.


[Footnote: Rules do vary by state and country, of course, but that variation is presumably in their equivalent Mental Health Act, not in their equivalent Charter of Human Rights.]

[stui magpie]

being detained or deprived of liberty doesn't just mean gaol, it also covers involuntary admission to a psych ward. There's all sorts of hoops you have to jump through and i's and t's to be dotted and crossed, all of which is designed to protect the individual but also serves to make it more difficult for clinicians and cops dealing with people who sho signs of psychosis.

Cops can't tell if someone is off their nut on drugs or just off their nut, so they drag them to an ED for a mental health assessment.

[K]

...
Cops ... drag them to an ED for a mental health assessment.

So do you agree that this doesn't seem entirely legal?

I'm wondering if the cops actually know the law. If they do, another possibility is that they bend it by verbally persuading people who are probably scared and don't know the law to "accompany them voluntarily" to the psych ward. I find this all rather disturbing.

I'll see what other info there is governing police conduct...

[Wokko]

Dante Ian Watkins, born at 12:48pm. 10lb 8 ounces. 4.76kg. 53 cm long.

[Jezza]

Congratulations, Wokko.

[stui magpie]

...
Cops ... drag them to an ED for a mental health assessment.

So do you agree that this doesn't seem entirely legal?

I'm wondering if the cops actually know the law. If they do, another possibility is that they bend it by verbally persuading people who are probably scared and don't know the law to "accompany them voluntarily" to the psych ward. I find this all rather disturbing.

I'll see what other info there is governing police conduct...

I think it's perfectly legal in the majority of cases. The cops get called to an incident where someone is acting up, potentially posing a threat to themselves or others. Under the mental health act (IIRC) that's grounds for an involuntary admit to a pysch ward, if that is supported by a Psych assessment.

So the cops have a choice. They can leave the person alone and they may suicide or harm others, they can take them to the watch house and lock em up for 4 hours, putting resources into watching them, or take them to an ED for a mental health assessment which, as WPT has indicated previously, takes time and skill. You can't just plug em into machine or run a scan.

Health services operate within the law and the charter but sometimes it's necessary to push the boundaries to ensure the safety of staff and other patients.

It's a classic case for mine of the people who framed the legislation and charter not giving due consideration to the unintended consequences.

[stui magpie]

Dante Ian Watkins, born at 12:48pm. 10lb 8 ounces. 4.76kg. 53 cm long.

Congrats Wokko. Interesting first name, is the missus going ok? That's a fair lump to push out.

[K]

...
I think it's perfectly legal in the majority of cases. The cops get called to an incident where someone is acting up, potentially posing a threat to themselves or others. Under the mental health act (IIRC) that's grounds for an involuntary admit to a pysch ward, if that is supported by a Psych assessment.
...

The "posing a threat" part is very iffy. I mean, if the patient has actually e.g. assaulted someone, then it seems clear there's ground to act, so we're not talking about that sort of thing.
I'll post about the Act at some other time, but a quick comment. An assessment order can only be given by a registered health professional. Let's concentrate for the moment on well-intentioned cops. It may be the cop's intention to take the person to a place where there is a registered health professional who can legally make an assessment order, but this means the cop has had to restrict the person's freedom before a health professional has had a chance to make an assessment that could possibly justify such a later action. Not kosher, as far as I can see.

[K]

Dante Ian Watkins, born at 12:48pm. 10lb 8 ounces. 4.76kg. 53 cm long.

Congrats.

[stui magpie]

...
I think it's perfectly legal in the majority of cases. The cops get called to an incident where someone is acting up, potentially posing a threat to themselves or others. Under the mental health act (IIRC) that's grounds for an involuntary admit to a pysch ward, if that is supported by a Psych assessment.
...

The "posing a threat" part is very iffy. I mean, if the patient has actually e.g. assaulted someone, then it seems clear there's ground to act, so we're not talking about that sort of thing.
I'll post about the Act at some other time, but a quick comment. An assessment order can only be given by a registered health professional. Let's concentrate for the moment on well-intentioned cops. It may be the cop's intention to take the person to a place where there is a registered health professional who can legally make an assessment order, but this means the cop has had to restrict the person's freedom before a health professional has had a chance to make an assessment that could possibly justify such a later action. Not kosher, as far as I can see.

Now you need to check the Crimes act. Both the Crimes act and mental Health act would over rule the charter to the extent of any inconsistency and the Police have the right to detain you by placing you under arrest.

HELLO DAVID, any chance of a thread split? This isn't an overly happy topic.

[K]

^ Yes, the Crimes Act will be interesting reading. (Is that what it's called? With name and year, these things can be found relatively easily. Without such info, not.) The Mental Health Act does not give non-health professionals any first-hand power, I think.

[stui magpie]

Knock yourself out.

http://www.legislation.vic.gov.au/domin ... orised.pdf


http://www7.austlii.edu.au/cgi-bin/view ... /ca195882/

Depending how you prefer to read it.