Nick's Collingwood Bulletin Board

Maybe Shack could give him some secret herbs and spices.

Josh is very mobile for his size and good when the ball is around his ankles (again, for his size). He is mobile, has decent 'big man' pace and endurance. Josh also has pretty good disposal skills and decision making is alright.

He doesn't tend to get too many hitouts as a ruckman but his work around the ground is usually very good.

As a forward he is severely hampered by his inability to take contested marks, sometimes under even mild pressure and this is a much bigger weakness to his game than his tap-work.

Can get cut up by ruck opponents who are physical and prepared to push forward. Josh's ability to play a defensive ruck game is at times questionable.

For mine Josh is a very good player but not yet the champion many had hoped for. The expectations of the fans were and remain enormous for Josh and this makes it hard to gleen an honest appraisal of where he is at in his career. As I say, I think he is a very good player with a few glaring weaknesses, who gives his all but can look to be trying too hard at times.

If he could just develop an ability to take strong, contested grabs he could still be the out and out league champion we all so desperately would like him to become.

How do people usually respond to that? Since when? Maybe you should tell him how you feel about him. I don't follow your reasoning.

Joel, one thing you can tell from those figures is that while those figures have tailed off in the past two years, he has been spending more time as the ruckman. Where as earlier in his career, he was more of the tall forward.

Joel wrote:

Cakewalk wrote:All Josh Fraser's "bag" of goals have been in games where we've thrashed the opposition and everyone's got in on the act(we were up by 60-odd points at 3/4 time versus Adelaide and he didn't kick one in the final quarter).

Just to use some facts in regards to that statement.

In 2001:

He kicked 4 against Freo at the start of the year, in a 17 point win. Not a drubbing here.

He kicked 4 against WC, when we did thrash them.

He also kicked 3 against the Hawks in a 55 point loss.

In 2002:

He kicked 4 goals in a good win against Melbourne.

3 in a loss to Fremantle.

4 in a 22 point win against Adelaide - not really a big win there.

3 in a good win over Richmond.

3 in the drubbing of Carlton.

3 in the Prelim V Adelaide, in a pressure cooker environment.

He then backed up and kicked 3 in the GF against Brisbane. Pretty good effort I reckon.

2003:

He kicked 3 in a loss against Hawthorn.

And 3 in games against Adelaide and Freo.

2004:

Kicked 3 in a good win over the Dogs.

So, as you can see, he has kicked games in losses as well as wins. The thing is, it doesn't matter when he kicked goals, as long as he kicks them.

So I'm not sure how you can use it against him.

It was directed more to this comment on "bags" of goals Frasers kicked

Round 18 2002 against Carlton when he kicked 5, playing manly as a forward with Stunning in the ruck, Round 14 2002 against Adelaide when he kicked 4, Round 11 2002 against Melbourne when he kicked 4.. there a plenty of times he's moved forward and kicked a bag. As you would have noticed, most of his bags were kicked in 2002 when he had another ruckman playing well enough to back him up and free him into the forward line. We now have Richards, so this should see Josh move forward more often and start to kick regular bags like back in 2002.

Going by your stats assuming they are correct it would be pushing it to say he's ever kicked a bag of goals , 5 would be my minimum standard to be called a bag.
I hope he can consistently kick a few each week and offer a target, but the point is he hasn't earned the credit he seems to get for his career so far , he regularly gets off the hook.
He hasn't done a hell of alot and I'm afraid we'll always be saying that "next year will be the year for Josh".
This year HAS to be to be Josh's year or you'd have to consider your options with him.

I reckon if he could kick 3 or 4 on a consistent basis, I would be very happy with that. No player, except a Lloyd or a Gherig will kick 5 on a weekly basis.

Cakewalk wrote:

Joel wrote:

Cakewalk wrote:All Josh Fraser's "bag" of goals have been in games where we've thrashed the opposition and everyone's got in on the act(we were up by 60-odd points at 3/4 time versus Adelaide and he didn't kick one in the final quarter).

Just to use some facts in regards to that statement.

In 2001:

He kicked 4 against Freo at the start of the year, in a 17 point win. Not a drubbing here.

He kicked 4 against WC, when we did thrash them.

He also kicked 3 against the Hawks in a 55 point loss.

In 2002:

He kicked 4 goals in a good win against Melbourne.

3 in a loss to Fremantle.

4 in a 22 point win against Adelaide - not really a big win there.

3 in a good win over Richmond.

3 in the drubbing of Carlton.

3 in the Prelim V Adelaide, in a pressure cooker environment.

He then backed up and kicked 3 in the GF against Brisbane. Pretty good effort I reckon.

2003:

He kicked 3 in a loss against Hawthorn.

And 3 in games against Adelaide and Freo.

2004:

Kicked 3 in a good win over the Dogs.

So, as you can see, he has kicked games in losses as well as wins. The thing is, it doesn't matter when he kicked goals, as long as he kicks them.

So I'm not sure how you can use it against him.

It was directed more to this comment on "bags" of goals Frasers kicked

Round 18 2002 against Carlton when he kicked 5, playing manly as a forward with Stunning in the ruck, Round 14 2002 against Adelaide when he kicked 4, Round 11 2002 against Melbourne when he kicked 4.. there a plenty of times he's moved forward and kicked a bag. As you would have noticed, most of his bags were kicked in 2002 when he had another ruckman playing well enough to back him up and free him into the forward line. We now have Richards, so this should see Josh move forward more often and start to kick regular bags like back in 2002.

Going by your stats assuming they are correct it would be pushing it to say he's ever kicked a bag of goals , 5 would be my minimum standard to be called a bag.
I hope he can consistently kick a few each week and offer a target, but the point is he hasn't earned the credit he seems to get for his career so far , he regularly gets off the hook.
He hasn't done a hell of alot and I'm afraid we'll always be saying that "next year will be the year for Josh".
This year HAS to be to be Josh's year or you'd have to consider your options with him.

Mate, a "bag" is still a "bag" regardless of what team you play against. Sure the ball was delivered in with more direction, but it takes a cool head to be able to convert. I understand that he has to lift, but there are many players on our list in the same boat. Oh, and how many players over 200cm's regularly kick "bags"? i don't think there are any.

Joel wrote:I reckon if he could kick 3 or 4 on a consistent basis, I would be very happy with that. No player, except a Lloyd or a Gherig will kick 5 on a weekly basis.

That is a possibility Joel. He would add that extra dimention to the forward line, and taking the last five minutes of the ruck each quarter, with Richards adding a dangerous forward option in that time. Imagine the opposition trying to counter a forward line consisting of Tarrant, Fraser, Rocca Cam Cloke (playing in the Molloy role) and possibly Tom Davidson and later on, Billy Morrison.

Don't forget we will have Davis, Didak and possibly Caracella at their feet. That is a formidable outfit in anyones language.

I find it extraordinary that some people are complaining that Josh is not kicking "bags" of goals. Surely you should be directing that criticism to the bloke who stands in the goal square each week? Tarrant. He's the bloody full-forward, for chrissakes.

Josh was switched to first choice ruckman late in 2003 when it became blindingly obvious that McKee was finished and, for all the criticism he's also received for supposed lack of ruck skills, he was arguably the prime reason we swept all before us heading into the finals. He was also one of the very few who could have walked off the MCG after the Grand Final with his head up.

Since then, he's been our first choice ruckman. Richards' development this year came about only because Josh was out injured.

The problem with the arguments against Josh as a ruckman is that they are selective. You focus on what you see him not doing. I see the bloke as a complete package and think that, for what he isn't doing as a tapout ruckman, he more than makes up for in all other respects.

I also think it's time some of you remembered that a ruckman doesn't develop fully until he's 25. You compare Josh to Clarke Keating. Keating has been with Brisbane since 1991 and is 28 years old. Were any of you "ooh ahhing" about Keating's performances before the 2002 GF? No, you bloody well were not and yet Keating turned 26 in March of that year. Josh is 22, FFS! Leave him alone and let him develop as he needs to.

When he wins a Brownlow and a Norm Smith in a premiership winning year for the 'Pies, I bet you'll be as lavish with your praise as you now are with your criticism and I wouldn't mind betting you'll be saying you saw it in him all along.

can someone define " bag" how deep is it and what can you fit inside it?

Cannibal, great post I have a lot of time for Josh. Pity those who think jeff white is better.

I too have time for Josh. But, he must perform consistently - end of argument.

Do we expect him to become an All-Australian ruckman/forward one day? How good do we really expect him to be?

As much as I hate to agree with you, Cannibal...

...you're spot on.

It would be nice to see him come along a bit and really take games by the scruff, but he has already come a long way, and at the very least deserves, and demands, his spot in the lineup each week.

Unlike very, very few of our players (possibly only Burns?), I haven't seem him have a shocker lately, either. He always does enough, and sometimes more.

And as to this talk about him being unable to stack on the bulk - he's getting there! Two years ago I gave him the nickname "Feed Fraser", as in, that's what I would shout whenever he got near the ball. Now his body is much more mature and solid, and I would have to think the coaching staff are pleased with the way he's been developing.

Perhaps he struggles to take a contested mark, but gee he's taken some truly gutsy grabs...

Johnson#26 wrote:Do we expect him to become an All-Australian ruckman/forward one day? How good do we really expect him to be?

That's the level I expected, and probably still think can be achieved.