I sometimes agree with some of Rohans post, in respect to recruiting, because I don't think that anyone could argue that our recruiting (maybe not including last year) has been terrible. I think that we have some nervous times ahead, just for the reason that we have seen our recruiters screw up our good, high draft choices in past years.We have a reasonable season, get lower draft choices, and now must trade players if we are to get any quality.
I can't get over the King-McKee trade, so now I'm very anxious and nervous to see what we will do this year. Truly, I have very little confidence in Judkins, and I know thats a terrible thing to say, but we have been burnt too many times.
Confused
Moderator: bbmods
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DaicosForever
To state the Bloody obvious. St Kilda are in the best..yes best position to bargain and ultimatley get Black as they are effectively 2nd cabs of the ranks in both upcoming drafts.Fremantle, if Black choses to walk out will not be redrafted by Fremantle but can ultimatley go to Stkilda. If he discourages a deal being struck by stkilda and nothing goes to plan the poor chap runs the risk of being to West Coast...Back to square one. He has to entertain these offers by the saints cos he has no choice. And Freo will play hardball....Let me say this if Freo let himm go they might as well hand in their
AFL registration forms and close shop. They must keep players of Blacks ability and not lose them every couple of years and they know it!!! So please Rohan and anybody else stop lambasting our recruiting for christs/s sake. Chose another forum and bloody piss off...
Louis
AFL registration forms and close shop. They must keep players of Blacks ability and not lose them every couple of years and they know it!!! So please Rohan and anybody else stop lambasting our recruiting for christs/s sake. Chose another forum and bloody piss off...
Louis
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JLC
- Posts: 6387
- Joined: Tue May 30, 2000 6:01 pm
- Location: Keysborough still representing Hot Pies
- Been liked: 1 time
Thats a classic comment Magpie Greg........Heath Black a one sided player..........lol lol I suggest you watch Heath more closely and you will see that he kicks on either foot and i would go as far to suggest he could kick 50 metres off either fooot.
APA
EVERYONE IS A COLLINGWOOD SUPPORTER ITS JUST THAT SOME PEOPLE ARE IN DENIAL
APA
EVERYONE IS A COLLINGWOOD SUPPORTER ITS JUST THAT SOME PEOPLE ARE IN DENIAL
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serendipity
- Posts: 68
- Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2001 6:01 pm
- Location: Atherton Tablelands Nth.Qld
Sorry Rohan,
I have read, and thought about, a lot of your postings on web sites in the past year.....and I wonder what you are on about!!!!...you state one thing on one site..then contradict yourself on another site. Am I the only one to notice this? ...I can accept your constructive criticism...but not your negativety.Are you a SUPPORTER or do you just like getting responses like this??? If you want to support the Collingwood Football Club...GREAT...if not...go to a chat room....
I have read, and thought about, a lot of your postings on web sites in the past year.....and I wonder what you are on about!!!!...you state one thing on one site..then contradict yourself on another site. Am I the only one to notice this? ...I can accept your constructive criticism...but not your negativety.Are you a SUPPORTER or do you just like getting responses like this??? If you want to support the Collingwood Football Club...GREAT...if not...go to a chat room....
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Brown26
- Posts: 4070
- Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2001 6:01 pm
- Location: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia
- Been liked: 2 times
Rohan I believe your post is flawed on many levels.
1.
We recruited very well last year in order to acheive our goal - to be a contender for the finals, until our good young list gains enough experience to challenge for the flag. That's in the next few years. So we needed Clement, Holland, Steinfort, ect. to get us into the finals next year, so our young list will have finals experience. Do you think we need onballers given the full potential of players like Buckley, OBree, Didak, Davis' (both of them) Ben Johnson, Lonie, Licca, Adkins (if he's fit) that's seven or eight players off the top of my head who will play in the midfield in the next two years, and be very good. Do we need Hamill up forwards? Will he take Nick Davis spot? Or Leons next year? Do we need our recruits of last year playing in the reserves? No, we need Rintoul and Holland etc, who will be going out as the young guys move in.
2.
You obviously don't understand MM and Noel Judkins attitude of how to win a grand final. Incase you missed him on talking footy, MM said the key to winning grandfinals is to get a core of players with 100 games under their belts, that's 5 seasons.
So, if that's the case, we've got to recruit now for our team in two - three years time. Once again, our list in two years time with no recruiting will be excelent, we need players to get us in the finals until we're a realistic chance for the flag. We will be a flag contender not with recruits like Gerig and Hamill, but with the young guys already on our list.
3.
You underate the players we received. Holland and Clement are excellent players who do their jobs very well at Collingwood. They're not expected to be superstars, but they do the job MM wants them to and they do it very well. Also, along with Rintoul and Molloy, they provide some much needed muscle in the middle and up forwards where our young guys were being beaten up game after game purely due to lack of strength.
4.
Remember we were going to lose Michael anyway, so we had to trade him to someone. He wanted to leave and was asking for a million bucks. We did ok in that.
Look to the future. I've put this up before but have a look at this for next years list:
Burns, Presti, Wakelin
Lonie, Richo, Johnson
Rintoul, OBree, Lockyer
Adkins, Rocca, N.Davis
L.Davis, Tarrant, Molloy
Fraser, Buckley, Licuria.
Interchange from: Clement, Holland, Didak, Wasly, Stenifort, Cloak, Kinnear etc.
Changes I would make
- another tall back: if Kinnear can do it great
- Ruck help - ie. Stafford. adds mix to the forward line (impossible to match up - too tall!!) and wont mind rucking form the bench when Josh needs a rest.
We don't need Porter or Black - atm Black would be taking Johnson or Rintouls place - but remember there's Didak, wasly and co to come up, so we don't nned him. Wakelin off the bench would be good for me, and we could get a good young back to replace him, and Richo will be retiring when Colak comes through in a few years, etc. But good young backs are hard to find, and an ok guy will do fine.
Pies for Premiers 2002, 3, 4, 5, 6....
1.
We recruited very well last year in order to acheive our goal - to be a contender for the finals, until our good young list gains enough experience to challenge for the flag. That's in the next few years. So we needed Clement, Holland, Steinfort, ect. to get us into the finals next year, so our young list will have finals experience. Do you think we need onballers given the full potential of players like Buckley, OBree, Didak, Davis' (both of them) Ben Johnson, Lonie, Licca, Adkins (if he's fit) that's seven or eight players off the top of my head who will play in the midfield in the next two years, and be very good. Do we need Hamill up forwards? Will he take Nick Davis spot? Or Leons next year? Do we need our recruits of last year playing in the reserves? No, we need Rintoul and Holland etc, who will be going out as the young guys move in.
2.
You obviously don't understand MM and Noel Judkins attitude of how to win a grand final. Incase you missed him on talking footy, MM said the key to winning grandfinals is to get a core of players with 100 games under their belts, that's 5 seasons.
So, if that's the case, we've got to recruit now for our team in two - three years time. Once again, our list in two years time with no recruiting will be excelent, we need players to get us in the finals until we're a realistic chance for the flag. We will be a flag contender not with recruits like Gerig and Hamill, but with the young guys already on our list.
3.
You underate the players we received. Holland and Clement are excellent players who do their jobs very well at Collingwood. They're not expected to be superstars, but they do the job MM wants them to and they do it very well. Also, along with Rintoul and Molloy, they provide some much needed muscle in the middle and up forwards where our young guys were being beaten up game after game purely due to lack of strength.
4.
Remember we were going to lose Michael anyway, so we had to trade him to someone. He wanted to leave and was asking for a million bucks. We did ok in that.
Look to the future. I've put this up before but have a look at this for next years list:
Burns, Presti, Wakelin
Lonie, Richo, Johnson
Rintoul, OBree, Lockyer
Adkins, Rocca, N.Davis
L.Davis, Tarrant, Molloy
Fraser, Buckley, Licuria.
Interchange from: Clement, Holland, Didak, Wasly, Stenifort, Cloak, Kinnear etc.
Changes I would make
- another tall back: if Kinnear can do it great
- Ruck help - ie. Stafford. adds mix to the forward line (impossible to match up - too tall!!) and wont mind rucking form the bench when Josh needs a rest.
We don't need Porter or Black - atm Black would be taking Johnson or Rintouls place - but remember there's Didak, wasly and co to come up, so we don't nned him. Wakelin off the bench would be good for me, and we could get a good young back to replace him, and Richo will be retiring when Colak comes through in a few years, etc. But good young backs are hard to find, and an ok guy will do fine.
Pies for Premiers 2002, 3, 4, 5, 6....
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dillo_09
- Posts: 1001
- Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2001 6:01 pm
- Location: Whittington
To all those people who are bagging the recruiting staff for NOT recruiting Fraser Gherig, (and others) there are a couple of points you have missed in your post's -
1. The West Coast Eagles ABSOLUTELY REFUSED to deal with Collingwood in any way shape or form and made sure there wasnt even a 3 or 4 way deal for FG to come to Collingwood. They beleive MM did the dirty on them when he saw things going downhill. That is a fact that has been publicly stated by MM, Collingwood, Judkins and West Coast. MM said it at last years AGM, so if you were there Rohan (and obviously you werent) you would have heard him say it and you wouldnt have wasted all those little computer pixels and your energy constantly bagging the club and its non recruiting of FG.
2. FG has been injury prone over his career.
3. FG goes missing SOOOO easily when the going gets tough, and whilst he has won a couple of games off his own boot they have been few and far between. The gap between his best and worst is Massive!!
4. Rohan, you ARE NOT on the recruiting staff so don't profess to know better than MM, Judkins and co. otherwise you would be in the job!
5. NOBODY can say that because we traded pick # such and such we missed out on player X. Who knows who we would have drafted with that pick we traded. It could have been anyone one of up to 20-25 players that were taken by other clubs in between our picks where we actually took players.
6. MM, Ed and the recruiting staff look for 2 things in players and the first is that the person they are drafting is a quality person and then they look at their skill levels. This is stated time and time again by the recruiting staff and MM himself. Why do they look for quality people first? Cause we know they will listen, learn, follow plans, play hard and train hard. In any relationship, trust, communication and beleif in each other are the most critical thing in making the relationship work. In short the club knows they can trust them to adhere to diet, fitness and curfew rules, rules we NEVER see or hear about and unless you are heavily involved within the inner sanctum, you cannot presume to know what the recruiting staff are or have been thinking.
MM's comments on Talking Footy the other night were sensational. To hear one of the best coaches in the AFL say he was fairly happy with our list this year and would be looking at continuing the youth policy was great!! We must realise that to build a dynasty like those bastards at Essenscum have over the last few years and like Norths through the 90's we must take small steps every year. Giant strides are short term fixes.
To say that we, as a club, are still not attractive to potential recruits is absolute rubbish, and unless you are involved in the discussions between player managers and clubs there is no way you can make an accurate statement about why player X or player Y doesnt come to Collingwood. There are so many factors such as the salary cap, the players personality and work ethic, and the players planned position in the team in relation to the other players on the list, as there is no point having 18 ruckmen and 20 rovers (team balance).
Anyway, just my two bob's worth!!!
Cheers
Dillo
"The futures so bright, they will issued shades with every season's ticket!"
[This message has been edited by dillo_09 (edited 28 September 2001).]
1. The West Coast Eagles ABSOLUTELY REFUSED to deal with Collingwood in any way shape or form and made sure there wasnt even a 3 or 4 way deal for FG to come to Collingwood. They beleive MM did the dirty on them when he saw things going downhill. That is a fact that has been publicly stated by MM, Collingwood, Judkins and West Coast. MM said it at last years AGM, so if you were there Rohan (and obviously you werent) you would have heard him say it and you wouldnt have wasted all those little computer pixels and your energy constantly bagging the club and its non recruiting of FG.
2. FG has been injury prone over his career.
3. FG goes missing SOOOO easily when the going gets tough, and whilst he has won a couple of games off his own boot they have been few and far between. The gap between his best and worst is Massive!!
4. Rohan, you ARE NOT on the recruiting staff so don't profess to know better than MM, Judkins and co. otherwise you would be in the job!
5. NOBODY can say that because we traded pick # such and such we missed out on player X. Who knows who we would have drafted with that pick we traded. It could have been anyone one of up to 20-25 players that were taken by other clubs in between our picks where we actually took players.
6. MM, Ed and the recruiting staff look for 2 things in players and the first is that the person they are drafting is a quality person and then they look at their skill levels. This is stated time and time again by the recruiting staff and MM himself. Why do they look for quality people first? Cause we know they will listen, learn, follow plans, play hard and train hard. In any relationship, trust, communication and beleif in each other are the most critical thing in making the relationship work. In short the club knows they can trust them to adhere to diet, fitness and curfew rules, rules we NEVER see or hear about and unless you are heavily involved within the inner sanctum, you cannot presume to know what the recruiting staff are or have been thinking.
MM's comments on Talking Footy the other night were sensational. To hear one of the best coaches in the AFL say he was fairly happy with our list this year and would be looking at continuing the youth policy was great!! We must realise that to build a dynasty like those bastards at Essenscum have over the last few years and like Norths through the 90's we must take small steps every year. Giant strides are short term fixes.
To say that we, as a club, are still not attractive to potential recruits is absolute rubbish, and unless you are involved in the discussions between player managers and clubs there is no way you can make an accurate statement about why player X or player Y doesnt come to Collingwood. There are so many factors such as the salary cap, the players personality and work ethic, and the players planned position in the team in relation to the other players on the list, as there is no point having 18 ruckmen and 20 rovers (team balance).
Anyway, just my two bob's worth!!!
Cheers
Dillo
"The futures so bright, they will issued shades with every season's ticket!"
[This message has been edited by dillo_09 (edited 28 September 2001).]
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Hiya-and-Higher
- Posts: 318
- Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2001 8:01 pm
- Location: South Australia
Good reading Brown 26 and dillo_09 
I was talking yesterday to a *rabid* Norwood supporter reviewing some of the great players Collingwood has had from Norwood, (Scott Burns, Craig Kelly, Michael Taylor, Tony Francis) and we talked of Wasley. He said that Wasley only played a handful of games for Norwood because he was just too good not to be snaffled up by AFL. Let's hope he gets over his injuries. It sounds like we might have a gem that's not yet been able to be appreciated.
I agree that our major weakness was nearly always being beaten in the ruck. Having lost 8 games by something like 2 goals or less it really wouldn't take much to be a contender next year. Port Power have 4 ruckmen, Primus, French, Ainsbury(?) and Brogan, and all have looked good when they have had their chance. Maybe one of them will get sick of playing second string with so much talent?
I was talking yesterday to a *rabid* Norwood supporter reviewing some of the great players Collingwood has had from Norwood, (Scott Burns, Craig Kelly, Michael Taylor, Tony Francis) and we talked of Wasley. He said that Wasley only played a handful of games for Norwood because he was just too good not to be snaffled up by AFL. Let's hope he gets over his injuries. It sounds like we might have a gem that's not yet been able to be appreciated.
I agree that our major weakness was nearly always being beaten in the ruck. Having lost 8 games by something like 2 goals or less it really wouldn't take much to be a contender next year. Port Power have 4 ruckmen, Primus, French, Ainsbury(?) and Brogan, and all have looked good when they have had their chance. Maybe one of them will get sick of playing second string with so much talent?
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Brown26
- Posts: 4070
- Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2001 6:01 pm
- Location: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia
- Been liked: 2 times
Rohan,
You can't say that without trading we will be worse than we were this year because the competition improves. IF the competition improves, the standard (and skill level) of the players improves. And if that happens, why can't it happen to the players already at Collingwood. Are you telling me Fraser, Tarrant, Davis (1 and 2), Didak, Lonie, Lockyer, Johnson, Wasly, Shaw, and the plethera of other Pie young tallent are all not going to improve? No, of course you're not.
You have a good point, we shouldn't restrict ourselves to youth recruiting, however we should recruit young guys over old guys. Why recruit someone who will give us two years, however good, when we can TRY to get someone who will give us five or six or ten good years.
No one, not me anyway, is saying Black wouldn't be a nice pick up, but we will win a premiership without him. No question he is not a necessity to our side. Another tall back (Kinnear or Cloak even) and ruck help until Josh becomes the superstar we all know he will be, and we will be a force. We don't need to get big names, we need players of a good standard to complement the superstars we have.
If Black wants to come, great, but don't move heaven and earth and give up decent young guys for him, he's not a Lockyer yet!
Pies for Premiers 2002, 3, 4, 5, 6....
You can't say that without trading we will be worse than we were this year because the competition improves. IF the competition improves, the standard (and skill level) of the players improves. And if that happens, why can't it happen to the players already at Collingwood. Are you telling me Fraser, Tarrant, Davis (1 and 2), Didak, Lonie, Lockyer, Johnson, Wasly, Shaw, and the plethera of other Pie young tallent are all not going to improve? No, of course you're not.
You have a good point, we shouldn't restrict ourselves to youth recruiting, however we should recruit young guys over old guys. Why recruit someone who will give us two years, however good, when we can TRY to get someone who will give us five or six or ten good years.
No one, not me anyway, is saying Black wouldn't be a nice pick up, but we will win a premiership without him. No question he is not a necessity to our side. Another tall back (Kinnear or Cloak even) and ruck help until Josh becomes the superstar we all know he will be, and we will be a force. We don't need to get big names, we need players of a good standard to complement the superstars we have.
If Black wants to come, great, but don't move heaven and earth and give up decent young guys for him, he's not a Lockyer yet!
Pies for Premiers 2002, 3, 4, 5, 6....
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MarkT
- Posts: 1350
- Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2001 6:01 pm
- Location: Melb
Very interesting arguments. they are all true in some way and not in others.
Our recruiting has generally been absolutely terrible since 1990. Our recruiters ran our playing list into the groung and killed the coaching chances of a club legend. I cannot forgive that level of incompetance. I have never heard of another field of endevour where performance has been so consistantly bad and nothing was done for such a time. Finaly something was done, changes were made and things have slowly improved. There can be no doubt that our recruiting has improved.
Rohan is right though in saying that it has been unsectacular given our opportunities with draft pics and father son opportunities. Still, we have done better and I think we are playing a much smarter recruiting game.
Whilst I don't want to focuss heavily on individuasl deals, Fraser and Nick Davis will be great players but they picked themsdelves and even the completely imcompetent morons who killed our playing list would have got them right.
1 more point - at the risk of an outcry form you all.
Wasley will not be a senior player of any note. To see people writing that he is going to make a difference makes me cringe. He is very fast and he can leap. Unfortunately he cannot get enough of the ball and when he does he cannot use it. Even if that were not the case he is so injury prone that he is taking up space on the list if he remains. There was a time ehan I thought he was promising. That was about the time when I thought the same of Anthony Rocca. Whether it be injury or ability, the two are poles apart now. It is only my opinion, but why would our recruiting staff keep him on the list? If we can trade him I would.
Our recruiting has generally been absolutely terrible since 1990. Our recruiters ran our playing list into the groung and killed the coaching chances of a club legend. I cannot forgive that level of incompetance. I have never heard of another field of endevour where performance has been so consistantly bad and nothing was done for such a time. Finaly something was done, changes were made and things have slowly improved. There can be no doubt that our recruiting has improved.
Rohan is right though in saying that it has been unsectacular given our opportunities with draft pics and father son opportunities. Still, we have done better and I think we are playing a much smarter recruiting game.
Whilst I don't want to focuss heavily on individuasl deals, Fraser and Nick Davis will be great players but they picked themsdelves and even the completely imcompetent morons who killed our playing list would have got them right.
1 more point - at the risk of an outcry form you all.
Wasley will not be a senior player of any note. To see people writing that he is going to make a difference makes me cringe. He is very fast and he can leap. Unfortunately he cannot get enough of the ball and when he does he cannot use it. Even if that were not the case he is so injury prone that he is taking up space on the list if he remains. There was a time ehan I thought he was promising. That was about the time when I thought the same of Anthony Rocca. Whether it be injury or ability, the two are poles apart now. It is only my opinion, but why would our recruiting staff keep him on the list? If we can trade him I would.
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Rohan Coventry Tateson
Once again I am confused.
How can a financially crippled club that is in deb, has board troubles and has a unproven coach outbid (cash) Collingwood that has salary cap room?
If West Coast would not deal with Malthouse last year why do they get Malthouse to deal with a Western Australian club that doesn't like him from his West Coast days?
Bring back Andrew Ireland
In Skob We Trust
How can a financially crippled club that is in deb, has board troubles and has a unproven coach outbid (cash) Collingwood that has salary cap room?
If West Coast would not deal with Malthouse last year why do they get Malthouse to deal with a Western Australian club that doesn't like him from his West Coast days?
Bring back Andrew Ireland
In Skob We Trust
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MarkT
- Posts: 1350
- Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2001 6:01 pm
- Location: Melb
Bring Back Andrew Ireland indeed. That is the most sensible thing on this topic yet. He is a gun in Brisbane and a Collingwood legend. He ain't comming back though!
Now your question Rohan. St. Kilda can do all that in their position because they are financially irresponsible and their board are a continuation of a long running joke. Amazing stuff this year for even their past record.
Make no mistake, they will be broke soon if they arfen't already and they will be kept afloat by the stronger clubs and AFL bias. Even the TV deal guarantees 16 clubs. They will save big $ in thier salary cap with Spider and Hall gone and may save with a few retirements & delistings. They can't afford what they are offerring but they will do it anyway. If they spend big and go broke they deserve to be left to their own devices but they wont.
Now your question Rohan. St. Kilda can do all that in their position because they are financially irresponsible and their board are a continuation of a long running joke. Amazing stuff this year for even their past record.
Make no mistake, they will be broke soon if they arfen't already and they will be kept afloat by the stronger clubs and AFL bias. Even the TV deal guarantees 16 clubs. They will save big $ in thier salary cap with Spider and Hall gone and may save with a few retirements & delistings. They can't afford what they are offerring but they will do it anyway. If they spend big and go broke they deserve to be left to their own devices but they wont.
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Rohan Coventry Tateson
There is a rule that you can't trade prirotiy picks. Fremantles first pick in the draft is a priority pick because they didn't win more than 5 games (St Kilda have another one).
Collingwood second selection in 1999 was not a priority pick (its first was) and thus was stupidly traded to Richmond for a dud (McKee). At least when St Kilda swap a pick like this they get a quality player!
In Skob We Trust
Collingwood second selection in 1999 was not a priority pick (its first was) and thus was stupidly traded to Richmond for a dud (McKee). At least when St Kilda swap a pick like this they get a quality player!
In Skob We Trust
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JiMc
There seems to be alot of comparisons being made to Collingwoods recruiting and St Kildas. One thing that nobody has seemed to mention is that if Malcolm Blight wasnt a certainty to be coach there neither Gehrig, Hamill nor Capuano would have ended up there. That was clearly obvious. I also recall Hamill's manager saying something to that exact fact. At the time they were to join Blighty for "the ride of their life". HAHAHA.
All this talk about us not getting Black is simply just that "talk". We are 1 day into an 8 day trading period. All the major trades are done in the 11th hour anyway so time will tell. We weren't getting Anythony Rocca way back then, early in the piece either.
Last year Gehrig was lost because of West Coasts blatant refusal to deal with us. Not even our 1st pick was good enough for them but St Kilda's 2nd round pick and Sierakowski was??
Keys to success start with a strong and united administration and then the rest follows. Eddie and Co. have made alot of changes for the long term success of the club. Short term gains arent sustainable as the Demons and St Kilda have clearly shown.
GO PIES.....
All this talk about us not getting Black is simply just that "talk". We are 1 day into an 8 day trading period. All the major trades are done in the 11th hour anyway so time will tell. We weren't getting Anythony Rocca way back then, early in the piece either.
Last year Gehrig was lost because of West Coasts blatant refusal to deal with us. Not even our 1st pick was good enough for them but St Kilda's 2nd round pick and Sierakowski was??
Keys to success start with a strong and united administration and then the rest follows. Eddie and Co. have made alot of changes for the long term success of the club. Short term gains arent sustainable as the Demons and St Kilda have clearly shown.
GO PIES.....