Discussion about acceptable styles of argument in VPT

[stui magpie]

Oh, and I should add that all that is not merely my personal view but also the expected standard of conduct on this forum. That is less an ideological decision on the part of the administrator and moderation team than an attempt to maintain a functional community.

That standard may not always be enforced as well as it should be, but it is expected that debate here be conducted respectfully and without personal attacks. Everything I have 'snipped' over the past couple of pages in this thread was in clear breach of the rules, and I'd ask you all to keep that in mind in future.

Is it reasonable to assume that you haven't just snipped Wokko and TP's posts as well as deleted a harmless observation post of mine which was not in any way a personal attack?

[think positive]

Ptid, you're at it again. Wokko has a different view to you about Islam and its expansionist aspirations. It is debatable, but not without some basis for argument. He could presumably post pictures of Isis beheadings and Bin Laden and imply that these represent your views, but he has the reasonableness and etiquette not to do so. I think you should show him the courtesy of engaging with his argument, rather than cheap sarcasm and caricature. That style of posting is abusive.

No, it isn't. It's sarcastic in the very same way John Stewart and John Oliver mock the lunacy of politicians and others *nightly*. Others in the media are far, far more caustic. But your problem is somehow only with my free speech. Do you not see any problems with that given your frequent impassioned defense of other people's right to caustically criticise nonsense to the extent of their free speech rights? Targeting me exclusively is of course extremely biased and unacceptable by any fair standard.

Some things are pretty obviously destructive and warrant being called as determined so: Howard's children overboard and Beazley's sickly complicity which unleashed 15 years of hysteria and social conflict distracting from resolution of the actual problem; Bush and Cheney's blatantly obvious corrupt conflicts of interest; Blair's impassioned pleas based on information you could fit on the head of a pin with room spare; the invasion of Afghanistan; the invasion of Iraq; the $3T war expenditure; the scuppering of the HQ NBN; the self-centred intellectual and moral incompetence of Abbott; the clown-like nothingness of Milliband and Shorten; the failed authoritarian NT impositions on indigenous peoples (and Mabo and The Apology opposition prior); the failed European austerity religion (with thanks to Krugman's tutoring); the hideous US healthcare system (improved under Obama, mercifully); the idiocy of US gun laws; the centrality of declining real wages as a matter of economic urgency; the parochial politicisation of the global refugee problem which stole a decade from the opportunity to put a solution in place; the horrific notion of a privatised prison system and US rates of incarceration; the systematic attack on science by the fossil fuels industry, resulting in more pollution, more damage to wonders like the GBR, and more hideous mining pock marks and mountain top loss; the systematic lies claiming alternative and green energy are unviable even as their prices plummet and efficiency skyrockets; and many more.

Now, you might think the thugs, miscreants and paranoid adherents orchestrating or profiteering from or promoting or spreading propaganda on behalf of these mischiefs warrant a warm smile and the politeness of the Goofy Gophers; but I don't.

In my assessment, you have a compromised value system, which, for all your strengths in so many areas, suffers lies and deceptive manipulation for the sake of keeping the peace. I get that as it's a mainstream personality type and by no means odd. But, it does mean you're of no use once the due diligence is done and judgement calls need to be made. I've also told David he's over-concerned with being popular, though he's younger than you by a bit IIRC, so it goes with the turf of his age group a bit more.

In a world of statistical illusion, it is very easy to spread misinformation and deception, and it is extremely simple to scare the vulnerable and naive shiteless by peppering them with non-factual, non-statistical, fear-mongering rubbish.

Do you view the Catholic Church tolerating preaching against the use of condoms in Africa as warranting a warm smile and polite expression of disagreement, too? Was that great propagandist Tetzel just ahead of his time in his innovative use of free speech?

You see no ethical breach in what Wokko does, apparently, but I see gross negligence in it, whether he grasps that or not. I know he's just guessing and following paradigmatic assumptions to the point of religious adherence. But, because I support free speech, I'm not here to stop him, just to counter the worst of the rubbish with my own free speech.

I look forward to a time where you find the fortitude to deploy your free speech in aid of taking some of the burden of dealing with those whose End is Nigh free speech din is scaring the crap out of the naive, scuppringefforts at sane problem solving, and providing a platform of support for highly-destructive politicians and parasitic money grabbers.

You have a certain assessment of me, too, which is fine and welcome. But, I would argue, your preference for the misleading deception of others over my taking of exception to it is unwarranted and unfairly biased. I would be far, far happier if you corrected my factual errors and exaggerations, *and* put the same effort into correcting the factual errors and exaggerations of others, fairly and equally. Oh, and opposed the use of sarcasm and mockery as a general principle, rather than as a free speech constraint which should only apply to me and no one else. That, I think, would be a win for everybody.

David take a look at this one.

He says he's being targeted. Yet it's the same thing over and over, and always always one central person. It's about time you listened to the rest of us, and get this behaviour curbed, because that is what is pissing everyone off.

[think positive]

Violent gang behaviour like gang rape is not a Muslim phenomenon. It is and always has been a function of poverty and marginalisation, more than anything else. It can be a by-product of taking people in from war zones, yes; but to paint it as being part of some Muslim invasion is dishonest and deeply xenophobic.

its certainly not confined to Muslims thats ridiculous! its more about power, follow the leader, bullying and what can i get away with.

In the end, that's a question for study. Given the general attitude to women in Muslim societies (and the seeming fear and hatred of overt female sexuality) it would not surprise me if there was some higher propensity for young Muslim men to commit offences of this kind, in response to the "temptation" of western dress and general freedom. But it could well be a false hypothesis, when examined rigorously. And of course some men of all stripes may be misogynistic enough to commit such offences.

The more relevant issue is that numerous young, displaced, marginalised and disordered men from war zones will - we suspect - commit a higher rate of sexual offences than settled, secure people in their own indigenous communities. That then raises the question of whether democratically elected politicians should inflict that risk on the women of their communities without due consultation and careful parliamentary debate. I don't believe they should.

This is how you tell someone you disagree with them without being derogatory or offensive.

Only one person is upsetting a lot of other people with veiled abuse. Nasty comment disguised as so called humour, is abuse. I'd rather be called a stupid bitch, than cop the long winded crap about my personality and intelligence.

And so would the refugees.

All of them.

[David]

Oh, and I should add that all that is not merely my personal view but also the expected standard of conduct on this forum. That is less an ideological decision on the part of the administrator and moderation team than an attempt to maintain a functional community.

That standard may not always be enforced as well as it should be, but it is expected that debate here be conducted respectfully and without personal attacks. Everything I have 'snipped' over the past couple of pages in this thread was in clear breach of the rules, and I'd ask you all to keep that in mind in future.

Is it reasonable to assume that you haven't just snipped Wokko and TP's posts as well as deleted a harmless observation post of mine which was not in any way a personal attack?

Yes, it is. The point of having an ignore list is not to inform the community about who's on it at every opportunity. It would be appreciated if you would stop doing this.

[Morrigu]

^ out of curiosity - where does it say that in the rules then?????

[stui magpie]

Oh, and I should add that all that is not merely my personal view but also the expected standard of conduct on this forum. That is less an ideological decision on the part of the administrator and moderation team than an attempt to maintain a functional community.

That standard may not always be enforced as well as it should be, but it is expected that debate here be conducted respectfully and without personal attacks. Everything I have 'snipped' over the past couple of pages in this thread was in clear breach of the rules, and I'd ask you all to keep that in mind in future.

Is it reasonable to assume that you haven't just snipped Wokko and TP's posts as well as deleted a harmless observation post of mine which was not in any way a personal attack?

Yes, it is. The point of having an ignore list is not to inform the community about who's on it at every opportunity. It would be appreciated if you would stop doing this.

I don't do it at every opportunity, that's probably the first time in several months if you'd like to check. I was actually trying to encourage TP to persist with the Ignore function because it's better than scrolling through stuff which I consider to be little more than repeated attempts to prove ones own intellectual superiority by belittling others. That's my personal opinion by the way, not a personal attack, and from reading the posts of others it seems nothing has changed since I decided to use the ignore function.

I'm happy to take him off ignore if it makes you feel better, instead I'll simply start using the blue button repeatedly to report what I consider to be belittling abuse.

It would be appreciated if you would stop deleting things without just cause and try to moderate according to the rules

[Tannin]

Oh dear, is it Sunday again? It must be, we have the Great Weekly Let's All Shout At PTID Thread. Why? Who knows. He is certainly far, far from the most offensive poster here, and not even in the Top Ten so far as personal abuse, belittlement, and sarcasm goes.

F'kin stupid thread. Again.

[Tannin]

PS: I get so bloody sick of seeing this same stupid, childish thread every few weeks. If you want to gang up on somebody for no good reason, gang up on me you weak bastards. You'll get as good as you give - unlike PTID I will stoop to hurling mud right back at you and am not averse to slipping stones in the mudballs if you annoy me enough.

(Unless I get bored and have something better to do than read the VPT that day, of course, but you pays your money and you takes your chance.)

[stui magpie]

Oh dear, is it Sunday again? It must be, we have the Great Weekly Let's All Shout At PTID Thread. Why? Who knows. He is certainly far, far from the most offensive poster here, and not even in the Top Ten so far as personal abuse, belittlement, and sarcasm goes.

F'kin stupid thread. Again.

So maybe it's time to start handing out yellow cards and stamp down on the personal abuse, belittlement and sarcasm then if it's so rampant?

[watt price tully]

Now can everyone just

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVGDRXxfUrI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPyiUePXuGQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvJF0j-RLxk

and.......


my favourite:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WINDtlPXmmE

[stui magpie]

^

For the avoidance of doubt

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qcPt2U7Q9A

[think positive]

Oh dear, is it Sunday again? It must be, we have the Great Weekly Let's All Shout At PTID Thread. Why? Who knows. He is certainly far, far from the most offensive poster here, and not even in the Top Ten so far as personal abuse, belittlement, and sarcasm goes.

F'kin stupid thread. Again.

No it's actually not

<snip>

if you were to take a tally, his digs are the most rampant in the tavern, and by reading this thread, I'm not the only one who finds them deeply offensive. And I've had enough.

He uses vicious sarcasm to shout down anyone who doesn't agree with him. I don't think he has ever, ever even tried to see another persons point of view. It's not ganging up on him. It's coming out in defence of someone who has been at the shit end of another one of his belittling, sarcastic, self indigent, arrogant, posts that are designed to make you feel like an idiot. And then he says he was only joking. We just don't get his humor, you know because we are too dumb. No we ain't, we just can't be bothered getting a dictionary out to fight back with words that won't get deleted.

<snip> when you call him on it, he goes off on another one of his long winded posts that no one in their right mind could be bothered reading past the first paragraph. He never ever concedes someone might have a point, it's always "you took it the wrong way". No I didn't, I took it exactly they way you meant me too.

When I was a kid I was listening to the radio, the song nice legs shame about the face came on, my old man said to me "I bet they sing it the other way to you". Only joking, he says. And yet that comment has cut me deep for the last 40 years. It was nasty, unnecessary and designed only to hurt me, or make me feel inferior.

I would love to use the ignore function, but this site has some pretty crap workings (still no like button? How hard is that?) and it just makes the page impossible to read.

No one else does it like he does. He polarises the site, and I'd bet 10 to 1 that he's the reason a lot of posters are gone. Or at least the endless drama is the reason. This is a forum for discussing things, not to build up your ego, which by the way, is quite a pathetic thing to aim for in a lowly footy forum, but that's just my opinion.

We have had some really good debates here. It's possibl to get your point across without slagging off other people in the process. And 95% of the posters manage it 95% of the time. Do a poll if you don't believe me!

[David]

Is it reasonable to assume that you haven't just snipped Wokko and TP's posts as well as deleted a harmless observation post of mine which was not in any way a personal attack?

Yes, it is. The point of having an ignore list is not to inform the community about who's on it at every opportunity. It would be appreciated if you would stop doing this.

I don't do it at every opportunity, that's probably the first time in several months if you'd like to check. I was actually trying to encourage TP to persist with the Ignore function because it's better than scrolling through stuff which I consider to be little more than repeated attempts to prove ones own intellectual superiority by belittling others. That's my personal opinion by the way, not a personal attack, and from reading the posts of others it seems nothing has changed since I decided to use the ignore function.

I'm happy to take him off ignore if it makes you feel better, instead I'll simply start using the blue button repeatedly to report what I consider to be belittling abuse.

It would be appreciated if you would stop deleting things without just cause and try to moderate according to the rules

It's totally up to you whether you have him on or off your ignore list. If you want to discuss that with other posters, a PM is ideal - anything else is clearly off-topic and inappropriate. As for reporting, you're of course entitled to do that if you want to bring something to the attention of the moderators.

Posts are to be made in the relevant forum. Members are asked to read the forum descriptions before posting and stay on-topic to the threads as much as possible. If you have personal comments to make to another member, use email or PM. Please don't spoil the Bulletin Board for others by creating personal threads or getting off topic. This practice also creates more work for the moderators and members will receive a warning for repeated abuse of the these guidelines.

Members are asked to not act as 'back seat moderators', be it through calling other users to account for alleged infractions, continually pointing out infractions to moderators, or posting gratuitous comments regarding the actions (or lack of action) by the mods team.

[stui magpie]

Right. No worries then.

[think positive]

Right. No worries then.

How about stevic being allowed to umpire hawthorn in the grand final hey?