The 'me too' movement

[Skids]

When I was an apprentice I got held down and stripped and had my cock and balls painted, is that harassment? True story by the way!

What colour paint?

It's definitely harassment, bordering on sexual assault, unless of course you were into it.

It was green paint and was at least water based! No I wasn't into it but I did enjoy washing it off.

One thing they did to me was just plain dangerous. I was down a sewer manhole over 4 meters deep (no 'confined space' permits or atmosphere testing then). I unblocked the line and as the water gushing in was rising, and I was clambering up the ladder, they put the lid back on! Only for about 5 seconds, but, as well as a high chance of being overcome by methane, I could have drowned.
It was terrifying.

[KenH]

What colour paint?

It's definitely harassment, bordering on sexual assault, unless of course you were into it.

It was green paint and was at least water based! No I wasn't into it but I did enjoy washing it off.

One thing they did to me was just plain dangerous. I was down a sewer manhole over 4 meters deep (no 'confined space' permits or atmosphere testing then). I unblocked the line and as the water gushing in was rising, and I was clambering up the ladder, they put the lid back on! Only for about 5 seconds, but, as well as a high chance of being overcome by methane, I could have drowned.
It was terrifying.

The early 80s was a dangerous time in the trade! So many stupid things we did back then.

[K]

Nationwide News & Anor v Geoffrey Rush

http://www.fedcourt.gov.au/services/acc ... nationwide

"The Federal Court has established this online file in view of the public interest. Documents will be placed here when considered publicly accessible."


A lot of exhibits...*

e.g. A randomly selected e-mail from Damian Trewhella, 1 Dec 2018:

"Dearest GR-

It's such an awful situation that the STC and Daily Telegraph have jointly brought about - utterly diabolical.

I sincerely hope you are holding up ok - it's a storm full of a lot of bullsh** that will pass.
...

We need to request extremely respectfully that you step aside until this matter resolves (it is not a resignation...)
...

Very best,
DT"


A text message from Geoffrey, 10 Jun 2016:

"... beloved Aryan Schone Mullerin (yes a complicated and obtuse jeu de mots, of course) - basically it's a spectacular near-homophone praising you as a delicious mysterious daughter of the Miller! - apologies for missing your opening last night ... but I was thinking of you (as I do more than is socially appropriate [emoji here]) - how is your Big Wheel turning? ... how do months fly so quickly by? ..."


* Exhibits A1, A2 & A3 are the 1st, 2nd & 3rd Matters, I think.

[David]

[Tannin]

You forgot:

7: Criminal prosecution of false claims.

8: A public register of former claimants to help employers, co-workers, and employees protect themselves against the risk of working with people likely to publish claims against them.* A statute of limitations should apply such that one no longer appears on the list after as suitable period, say 20 years.

The aim here is to provide a balance between the right of a victim of harassment to speak out (which is essential but has massive costs for the victim of the complaint, whether or not it is true), and the right of ordinary people not to be the victim of a public claim of sexual wrongdoing.

Right now we have an insane guilt by accusation system with near-zero cost to the false accuser and horrendous, life-changing costs to the victim. With every other sort of crime, guilt is determined by evidence, almost always given in public, and always weighed up and decided on by a court of law. There are all sorts of problems with the court system, as we all know, but it does at least try to be fair to all parties, or at very least it pretends to try. Our current system of trial by accusation does not even pretend to try to be fair.

* Think about it. Suppose you discover that the person you are working with has previously, in some other job, made accusations against co-workers. You need to know this so that you can institute appropriate risk management before it happens to you too.

[think positive]

But what if the compliant was warranted? Do they get taken off the list? These cases are not easy to prove, so point 8 will push victims back in the wrong direction.

The false claim on would need as solid a foundation as a guilty one.

Just how common are false complaints? Who would open themselves up to that sort of microscope unless they had too?

[HAL]

Which one is that?

[K]

Yes, defendants like to claim that they've been proven not guilty when they've just not been proven guilty to the legal standard required.

There are already criminal defamation laws, though they are seldom used.

[Tannin]

But what if the compliant was warranted?

If you care so little about the offence that you aren't even willing to go on record as an accuser, then you have nothing to complain about.

Do they get taken off the list?

Of course not. That is the whole point of the list in the first place. It is there to warm people (mainly co-workers) that this is a person with form who you need to think carefully about. You may find it wise, for example, to make sure that there are always witnesses whenever the two of you are in a room. Or you may judge that this person is harmless and can be treated normally. That s a judgement call you have to make. But you MUST be entitled to know that there is history - exactly as you are entitled to know that someone has a criminal record. The point in either case is that there may be more risk, so you are entitled to know about it and make your own judgement about whether that person is safe to work with or share a flat with or whatever.

Just how common are false complaints?

Nobody knows. The one thing we can be 100% sure of is that the incidence is going to skyrocket now that it has become fashionable to accuse.

Who would open themselves up to that sort of microscope unless they had too?

Anyone with a grudge. Anyone in a tough battle for promotion. Anyone who didn't get promoted. Anyone with poor social skills who misunderstands a perfectly normal innocent incident and blows it up into something it wasn't. Anyone.

[ronrat]

I had a beer with a US (Californian) bloke in a bar of dubious repute in Thailand 5 years ago. He was over the noon as he he had just paid cash for a 2 bedroom beach side condo in Thaland . He apparently works in some large firm in Los Angeles and they had a new HR manager who was female. At the works Christmas booze up one of the girls he worked with said "Off to Thailand for Christmas again? Yep. The new HR Manager who was worse for booze blurted out in front of a dozen people. "Single men only go there to have sex with underage children:. She was asked to retract that remark and continued on with her assertion.

The next 2 days his lawyer submitted a claim for slander against the company and her. They pointed out this his brother had married a Thai lady, his nephews and nieces were half Thai and he was a keen golfer and he now felt besmirched. The horrified company settled there bit out of court and HR woman was dismissed without compensation. The woman fought it and lost and was forced to sell her house and he now travels business class to his condo every year


She left California because her reputation is poison and she is virtually unemployable in California as it made the papers.Her husband divorced her to retain his share of the property. This bloke I met was looking to an early retirement because he has plenty of money now and the firm cancelled all events involving alcohol

His Thai girlfriend probably loves it too as she gets to spend time looking after his condo while he is at work.

He got about 400 K US dollars and a condo costs him about 100k.

[thesoretoothsayer]

Amazing story.
Scary that an inane comment could result in someone losing their career and their home. She definitely deserved some form of disciplinary action but the punishment seems out of all proportion to the crime.

[David]

[K]

But what if the compliant was warranted?

If you care so little about the offence that you aren't even willing to go on record as an accuser, then you have nothing to complain about.
...

That is a really bad argument. Do you really think, for example, rape victims want their victimhood publicly known?

[stui magpie]

Just how common are false complaints?

Nobody knows. The one thing we can be 100% sure of is that the incidence is going to skyrocket now that it has become fashionable to accuse.

Who would open themselves up to that sort of microscope unless they had too?

Anyone with a grudge. Anyone in a tough battle for promotion. Anyone who didn't get promoted. Anyone with poor social skills who misunderstands a perfectly normal innocent incident and blows it up into something it wasn't. Anyone.

I understand where you're coming from, but I'm not as pessimistic.

The #metoo movement started in the USA and they have different laws to us.

Their statute of limitations works differently to ours, so there's a time limit over there (as I understand it) to report an incident

The right to free speech is enshrined in their constitution, so libel and defamation laws are very different. Over there, people can make accusations on social media with little fear of recourse, while the subject of the accusations undergoes trial by media, social and traditional, potentially ruining their life.
Here, as we've seen, publishing accusations can lead to defamation trials.

I think we have a better balance. There's a number of proper channels available to someone who wants to lodge a complaint where it can be assessed by some form of judiciary. Simply making accusations in public without using those channels is a recipe to get a public colonoscopy.

I have some sympathy for the ABC journalist who wasn't the one who made the issue public. Others made it public and she was basically forced into a deny or confirm conundrum.

[think positive]