Iraq in ruins

[think positive]

Why are ISIS evil?
Barbaric and cruel I get, but we are deeming them evil.
Why? Because they kill in a manner we find offensive - deliberate decapitation is abhorrent I agree, but is it any worse than dropping bombs on peoples houses that also blow civilians into pieces?
If every child with body parts blown off by bombings was photographed and posted on the internet etc, would you deem the bombers evil?

I find all killing in wars reprehensible. But I see how people continue to do it. You invade, kill and maim but you justify the deaths your side brings.
When the other side do it, you label their killing as evil.
So now we are justified in bombing and killing them.

ISIS have been labelled evil as they use the Internet & media to broadcast their terrible acts. I agree what they do is terrible.
The U.S. used the media to purport to the world that Ira
q had WMD's. They lied to the entire planet and then invaded and bombed the place upon a lie. Is that evil?
Spare me! This nonsense has been going on for millennia.
We good (our mass killing perfectly justifiable. Little girls we kill are unfortunate collateral damage.
Them bad, (their killing is pure evil. The little girls they kill are just acts of
bastadry.
Just insert your countries of choice.

Years ago I watched a video of a man getting his head cut off by one of these masked heroes, read cowards. I wish I never had. His screams of pain haunted me for a long time. And they do that to kids? They don't kill them first. That's not just murder by collateral damage, it's torture, it's just beyond comprehension.

Dropping bomb is bad, and all care should be taken when they are dropped, preferably so that no one, except maybe the despots themselves, are under it's but that's a long way from murdering and torturing already captive innocents.

[AN_Inkling]

I agree that the overblown language is unhelpful, as is the overfocus on the threat. According to ASIO there are 60 Australians fighting in this conflict. 60. This is somehow a major threat to our safety when hundreds, even thousands, of Australians fighting in Bosnia was not. The atrocities committed in that war were no less grave. Is the possibility that some of this violence could be brought home greater in the case of ISIS? Maybe, but I've not seen any direct threat from ISIS to Australia.

Our overreaction to these kind of events makes us look hypocritical and only helps to foster the very extremism we are trying to stamp out. I see that there is a difference, but it would surely be difficult for those more invested to fully process that Israel's killing of civilians is fine, not a problem, but when Muslims kill it's "barbaric" and "evil". Some here have bemoaned the effectiveness of the "Palestinian propaganda". That's rot. Turn it around: 2,000 dead Israelis at the hands of Hamas and only 60 dead Palestinians and the media reaction would be many magnitudes greater. No journalist would be losing their job over criticising Hamas, that's for sure.

[HAL]

Oh, overblown language is.

[sixpoints]

Why are ISIS evil?
Barbaric and cruel I get, but we are deeming them evil.
Why? Because they kill in a manner we find offensive - deliberate decapitation is abhorrent I agree, but is it any worse than dropping bombs on peoples houses that also blow civilians into pieces?
If every child with body parts blown off by bombings was photographed and posted on the internet etc, would you deem the bombers evil?

I find all killing in wars reprehensible. But I see how people continue to do it. You invade, kill and maim but you justify the deaths your side brings.
When the other side do it, you label their killing as evil.
So now we are justified in bombing and killing them.

ISIS have been labelled evil as they use the Internet & media to broadcast their terrible acts. I agree what they do is terrible.
The U.S. used the media to purport to the world that Ira
q had WMD's. They lied to the entire planet and then invaded and bombed the place upon a lie. Is that evil?
Spare me! This nonsense has been going on for millennia.
We good (our mass killing perfectly justifiable. Little girls we kill are unfortunate collateral damage.
Them bad, (their killing is pure evil. The little girls they kill are just acts of
bastadry.
Just insert your countries of choice.

Years ago I watched a video of a man getting his head cut off by one of these masked heroes, read cowards. I wish I never had. His screams of pain
haunted me for a long time. And they do that to kids? They don't kill them first. That's not just murder by collateral damage, it's torture, it's just beyond comprehension.

Dropping bomb is bad, and all care should be taken when they are dropped, preferably so that no one, except maybe the despots themselves, are under it's but that's a long way from murdering and torturing already captive innocents.

This sadly is exactly the sort of rhetoric I was referring to.
"all care should be taken when bombs are being dropped"
Yes, we must ensure we kill in the correct manner. Have I been transported onto the set of Dr. Strangelove?
This, us good v them bad dialectic offers nothing.
The question was ignored however - if you knowingly and purposefully drop bombs on a city full of civilians and resultantly dismember innocent little girls
- is that an act of evil?

[Mugwump]

I agree that the overblown language is unhelpful, as is the overfocus on the threat. According to ASIO there are 60 Australians fighting in this conflict. 60. This is somehow a major threat to our safety when hundreds, even thousands, of Australians fighting in Bosnia was not. The atrocities committed in that war were no less grave. Is the possibility that some of this violence could be brought home greater in the case of ISIS? Maybe, but I've not seen any direct threat from ISIS to Australia.

Our overreaction to these kind of events makes us look hypocritical and only helps to foster the very extremism we are trying to stamp out. I see that there is a difference, but it would surely be difficult for those more invested to fully process that Israel's killing of civilians is fine, not a problem, but when Muslims kill it's "barbaric" and "evil". Some here have bemoaned the effectiveness of the "Palestinian propaganda". That's rot. Turn it around: 2,000 dead Israelis at the hands of Hamas and only 60 dead Palestinians and the media reaction would be many magnitudes greater. No journalist would be losing their job over criticising Hamas, that's for sure.

Agree with much of that, but there was no history of Bosnian terrorists causing events like 9/11, nor was the grievance of Bosnians, Serbs etc against the fundamental principles of Western culture. Islamic terrorism has been indiscriminate for a long time, and apt to be pointed at our society.

I think the Israel Palestine problem is far more complex than ISiS, and i don't think the two cases can be meaningfully compared. ISIS seems a genocidal entity, whereas in Israel and Palestine the violence derives from potentially negotiable grievances, with some justification on both sides (though more justice on the Palestinian side, in my view). So the overblown language about ISIL is probably a bit short of the mark, in my view.

[watt price tully]

Apparently we're on the way back in.

........

Also, as an aside cos I'd rather not resurrect the other thread, ISIS or someone is firing into Israel from Syria around the Golan Heights area. Shit's going to get messier.

A great story here - well done to the Filipino's: Lets hope the Fijians are OK & will be OK

http://www.timesofisrael.com/all-filipi ... -standoff/

& a different but related story: UN staff escaping Syria going to Israel

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340 ... 48,00.html

[watt price tully]

I...... No journalist would be losing their job over criticising Hamas, that's for sure.

Mike Carlton lost his job because he abused in an OTT manner a poster who had the temerity to disagree with Carlton (& probably deserved to be abused) However, Carlton was right out of line here & took a while to begrudgingly provide an apology for his behaviour not because of his opinions. He & others have been writing what the right wing might interpret as anti Israel views for a long time.

I agree both Israel & Hamas have a lot to answer for (you failed to mention Hamas here)

As far as the term barbaric is used well decapitation is pretty shocking & visceral & frankly is barbaric.

[HAL]

I get it. [quote]

Mike Carlton lost his job because he abused in an OTT manner a poster who others was writing what the right wing might interpret as anti Israel views for a long time.

[AN_Inkling]

I...... No journalist would be losing their job over criticising Hamas, that's for sure.

Mike Carlton lost his job because he abused in an OTT manner a poster who had the temerity to disagree with Carlton (& probably deserved to be abused) However, Carlton was right out of line here & took a while to begrudgingly provide an apology for his behaviour not because of his opinions. He & others have been writing what the right wing might interpret as anti Israel views for a long time.

I agree both Israel & Hamas have a lot to answer for (you failed to mention Hamas here)

As far as the term barbaric is used well decapitation is pretty shocking & visceral & frankly is barbaric.

Hamas's killing wasn't relevant to the point I was making, I was giving an example of a non-Islamic group killing civilians. I don't need to denounce Hamas every time I criticise Israel. Not that I actually criticised them in my previous post.

And Carlton lost his job after repeated attacks over an article he wrote. So, maybe Fairfax did not terminate his employment directly for his opinions, but that was the end result. Would the backlash to such an article have been as vociferous if the actors were reversed? My view is that it wouldn't. My statement about Carlton was a little flippant, my main point was that the media reaction to the mass killing of Israelis would be far, far stronger to the reaction we've seen over the killing of Palestinians.

[swoop42]

I agree that the overblown language is unhelpful, as is the overfocus on the threat. According to ASIO there are 60 Australians fighting in this conflict. 60. This is somehow a major threat to our safety when hundreds, even thousands, of Australians fighting in Bosnia was not. The atrocities committed in that war were no less grave. Is the possibility that some of this violence could be brought home greater in the case of ISIS? Maybe, but I've not seen any direct threat from ISIS to Australia.

Our overreaction to these kind of events makes us look hypocritical and only helps to foster the very extremism we are trying to stamp out. I see that there is a difference, but it would surely be difficult for those more invested to fully process that Israel's killing of civilians is fine, not a problem, but when Muslims kill it's "barbaric" and "evil". Some here have bemoaned the effectiveness of the "Palestinian propaganda". That's rot. Turn it around: 2,000 dead Israelis at the hands of Hamas and only 60 dead Palestinians and the media reaction would be many magnitudes greater. No journalist would be losing their job over criticising Hamas, that's for sure.

What happened in Bosnia was shocking and unacceptable but that occurred pre 9/11.

The world changed that day when it only took a dozen or so extremists to cause mass death of innocent civilians.

Since then we've had the bombings in Bali, London and Spain all carried out by terrorist cells numbering I guess in the handfuls.

These nut jobs are out there, they want to kill us for our way of life and it would be foolish to think Australia is immune to suffering mass fatalities at the hands of just a few of them.

[sixpoints]

Here we go again..
Our side kills justifiably, the other kills like nut jobs.

Somehow everything changed after 9/11??
That must come as a disappointment to the 8000 Muslims who were shot, and when the bullets ran out were clubbed/throats slit in Srebrenica. I guess they just didn't matter as much as the 9/11 victims. In that one Bosnian town, eight times as many deaths occurred as in 9/11.
Both were disgusting criminal acts, but one seems to be treated far differently to the other. The one where far far less lives were lost seems to be regarded as the greater crime.
Again, was the killing of muslim civilians in Srebrenica evil?

[watt price tully]

Here we go again..
Our side kills justifiably, the other kills like nut jobs.

Somehow everything changed after 9/11??
That must come as a disappointment to the 8000 Muslims who were shot, and when the bullets ran out were clubbed/throats slit in Srebrenica. I guess they just didn't matter as much as the 9/11 victims.
Again, was the killing of muslim civilians in Srebrenica evil?

Absolutely barbaric. Didn't the US come to the aid of the Bosnians? - admittedly far too late.

[think positive]

Why are ISIS evil?
Barbaric and cruel I get, but we are deeming them evil.
Why? Because they kill in a manner we find offensive - deliberate decapitation is abhorrent I agree, but is it any worse than dropping bombs on peoples houses that also blow civilians into pieces?
If every child with body parts blown off by bombings was photographed and posted on the internet etc, would you deem the bombers evil?

I find all killing in wars reprehensible. But I see how people continue to do it. You invade, kill and maim but you justify the deaths your side brings.
When the other side do it, you label their killing as evil.
So now we are justified in bombing and killing them.

ISIS have been labelled evil as they use the Internet & media to broadcast their terrible acts. I agree what they do is terrible.
The U.S. used the media to purport to the world that Ira
q had WMD's. They lied to the entire planet and then invaded and bombed the place upon a lie. Is that evil?
Spare me! This nonsense has been going on for millennia.
We good (our mass killing perfectly justifiable. Little girls we kill are unfortunate collateral damage.
Them bad, (their killing is pure evil. The little girls they kill are just acts of
bastadry.
Just insert your countries of choice.

Years ago I watched a video of a man getting his head cut off by one of these masked heroes, read cowards. I wish I never had. His screams of pain
haunted me for a long time. And they do that to kids? They don't kill them first. That's not just murder by collateral damage, it's torture, it's just beyond comprehension.

Dropping bomb is bad, and all care should be taken when they are dropped, preferably so that no one, except maybe the despots themselves, are under it's but that's a long way from murdering and torturing already captive innocents.

This sadly is exactly the sort of rhetoric I was referring to.
"all care should be taken when bombs are being dropped"
Yes, we must ensure we kill in the correct manner. Have I been transported onto the set of Dr. Strangelove?
This, us good v them bad dialectic offers nothing.
The question was ignored however - if you knowingly and purposefully drop bombs on a city full of civilians and resultantly dismember innocent little girls
- is that an act of evil?

Yes, definately, evil and greed, that only mankind can master

(Ps I was putting it funny, note I added preferably with only the bad guys under it!)

All killing is evil
Except umpires

[Mugwump]

Here we go again..
Our side kills justifiably, the other kills like nut jobs.

Somehow everything changed after 9/11??
That must come as a disappointment to the 8000 Muslims who were shot, and when the bullets ran out were clubbed/throats slit in Srebrenica. I guess they just didn't matter as much as the 9/11 victims.
Again, was the killing of muslim civilians in Srebrenica evil?

Absolutely barbaric. Didn't the US come to the aid of the Bosnians? - admittedly far too late.

Yep, I'm confused. Sixpoints, are you saying that it's legitimate for someone (eg the Us) to bomb throat-slitters like ISIS and Mladic if it can serve a strategic purpose, or not ?

[sixpoints]

Years ago I watched a video of a man getting his head cut off by one of these masked heroes, read cowards. I wish I never had. His screams of pain
haunted me for a long time. And they do that to kids? They don't kill them first. That's not just murder by collateral damage, it's torture, it's just beyond comprehension.

Dropping bomb is bad, and all care should be taken when they are dropped, preferably so that no one, except maybe the despots themselves, are under it's but that's a long way from murdering and torturing already captive innocents.

This sadly is exactly the sort of rhetoric I was referring to.
"all care should be taken when bombs are being dropped"
Yes, we must ensure we kill in the correct manner. Have I been transported onto the set of Dr. Strangelove?
This, us good v them bad dialectic offers nothing.
The question was ignored however - if you knowingly and purposefully drop bombs on a city full of civilians and resultantly dismember innocent little girls
- is that an act of evil?

Yes, definately, evil and greed, that only mankind can master

(Ps I was putting it funny, note I added preferably with only the bad guys under it!)

All killing is evil
Except umpires

A nice touch of humor to a bleak topic
Well done!