The 'Law is an ass' thread

[David]

who could argue against the death penalty here?

I could. Why not life without parole? Achieves exactly the same aim.

On the "being raped and getting his throat cut" thing, do you think you'd actually derive pleasure from seeing him suffer (say, at a public execution/torture session)? Or is it more of an abstract thing?

[1061]

Build a gallows for a Public hanging and once he has the noose around his neck leave his hands free so it'll take longer then tilt the platform slightly and pour oil over it then watch as his survival instincts kick in and he struggles for his life.

[David]

[1061]

[David]

[swoop42]

Some disgusting comments in this thread.

What raped by blokes you'd be happy for your daughter to date once they are released from gaol?

I find it disturbing that some of you seem to find some nobility in prisoners who would do such an act.

Prisoners perhaps like Chopper Reid who if I recall correctly was told to rot in hell (or something along those lines) upon his death by the same posters now hoping Cowan suffers a brutal death.

The hypocrisy is unbelievable.

Oh and if you really want to witness what it looks like to see people tortured, murdered and beheaded then head over to theync.com and soak up the reality of it all.

[David]

[1061]

[David]

Don't tar me with the brush of supporting insufficient sentencing. I am, like most people, concerned by failures of rehabilitation and ineffectual jail terms. I still, for example, lay most of the blame for Jill Meagher's death with a succession of overly lenient court decisions, given that anyone with a brain could see that her murderer was a menace to society and likely beyond rehabilitation. So, no, this has nothing to do with "my types". Note, however, that it is entirely possible to sentence adequately without resorting to mediaeval brutality. There is a third way.

[think positive]

[Tannin]

The thing with deterrents is that they have to (a) deter, and (b) not attract.

The notion of severe punishment to fit the crime is attractive. When you consider crimes of this nature, it is easy and tempting to fantasise about hanging and the electric chair and castration and rape and whipping and branding and staking out on an anthill and all manner of other treatments, none of them objectively worse than that meted out to the unfortunate victim by the criminal. Why the hell not?

Surely the perpetrator deserves no better? I agree. I couldn't care less if the basted is hung upside down by his testicles till he chokes on his own vomit. Hell, I'd tie the knot myself and not lose a moment's sleep about it later.

Surely it would deter? Well, not really. It would deter some, no doubt, but probably not too many. The thing is, severe penalties can be easily put out of mind if the criminal can simply assume that "it won't happen to me". As we have learned about bastards who start bushfires, the weight of the penalty makes surprisingly little difference. What does make a difference is the certainty of detection and especially swift detection. (Sadly, with arsonists, the detection rate is terribly low.) We probably can't do too much about the detection rate for bad crimes of violence (aggrivated rape, murder, and the like), but as things stand it is quite good already. Off the top of my head, I'd guess that something like 7 out of 10 perpetrators get caught, probably more.

But surely it would do no harm, and quite possibly do some good? Well, no. The moment you start specifying spectacular punishments such as death, castration, whipping and the like, a certain sort of mind becomes fascinated by the punishment as much as the crime. Which is more appealing and romantic for a young sicko like Julian Knight? Dicing heroically with death itself on the gallows in a storm of publicity? Or facing a blank, hopeless future of grim grey walls where nothing changes and every dreadful day is the same as the day before and the punishment goes on for years? To this sort of mind, the more spectacular the punishment, the more attractive the crime. Hell, look at the Middle-east where young men are practically queuing up for the darkly romantic task of murdering strangers using bombs strapped to their own bodies. The certain death is no deterrent, indeed, it is half of the attraction.

In summary, the main argument against capital punishment and other gruesome legal penalties isn't that it is unfair or unkind to the criminal - beyond a certain point, we should not even care about the bastard, he has deliberately abandoned any claim he ever had to be regarded as a human being, and reduced his status to less than that of an animal (one should always treat animals with as much kindness as is reasonably possible, and if you kill, at least make it fast and painless - these strictures do not apply to the Julian Knights of this world).

However, this certainly does not mean that we should abandon our own humanity in order to punish someone who has abandoned his own. We should be better than that, and our civilisation itself depends on maintaining at least some standards. Once you let the genie of deliberate state-sanctioned cruelty out of the bottle, it is near-impossible to put back and you are on the path to the extermination camp and the gulag. It's an easy downhill path and many societies have followed it.

Nevertheless, it must be recognised that this argument about our own humanity is too deep and abstract for many of us to understand: it will always struggle to maintain itself against the surge of hate and anger and revenge that naturally follows events like the ones discussed in this thread.

As it happens, however, there is another, more immediate and practical argument: simply, gruesome punishments are poor deterrents and good advertisements for gruesome crimes. Yep, they only appeal to and attract the fascination of sick and twisted individuals - but it is precisely those individuals who commit the most dreadful crimes.

[think positive]

Some disgusting comments in this thread.

What raped by blokes you'd be happy for your daughter to date once they are released from gaol?

I find it disturbing that some of you seem to find some nobility in prisoners who would do such an act.

Prisoners perhaps like Chopper Reid who if I recall correctly was told to rot in hell (or something along those lines) upon his death by the same posters now hoping Cowan suffers a brutal death.

The hypocrisy is unbelievable.

Oh and if you really want to witness what it looks like to see people tortured, murdered and beheaded then head over to theync.com and soak up the reality of it all.

Where is the hypocrisy? I wouldn't let any of the type that do this shit near my kids. Even other crims see pedophiles as another type of being all together

Since I said the same about both, where the hypocrisy there?

I don't want to SEE anyone Tortured or murdered, I just want them to suffer what they did to others.

[David]

Even other crims see pedophiles as another type of being all together

I've always been perplexed by the idea of murderers, rapists and violent thugs taking the moral high ground.

I guess some of them think they can ("Yes, I put an innocent bystander in a coma, but I'd never harm a child!"), but mostly they probably just enjoy the idea of beating up on 'pervs'. Note the subtle difference in motivation there.

[1061]

Even other crims see pedophiles as another type of being all together

I've always been perplexed by the idea of murderers, rapists and violent thugs taking the moral high ground.

I guess some of them think they can ("Yes, I put an innocent bystander in a coma, but I'd never harm a child!"), but mostly they probably just enjoy the idea of beating up on 'pervs'. Note the subtle difference in motivation there.

David sometimes we(you) over-think situations, hurting a child is and IMO I don't know about your opinion but in mine something I believe human beings are repulsed by. If you think harming a child is equal to those other crimes you glibly posted about then that is where your moral compass lay.

I see the crimes and the people who commit them differently.

[1061]

Just to change tack a bit I wonder if the Police should have used the name "Middle Eastern" in their reports of cracking this Syndicate? I am probably 85% on the affirmative side but that is and I will be honest a racist response from living in an area where we have many Middles Eastern immigrants, refugee's, people over staying visa's ect ect.

http://www.vicpolicenews.com.au/news/30 ... -ring.html

Police have arrested a number of people and seized drugs and firearms this morning following series of warrants across the north-western suburbs of Melbourne targeting Middle Eastern crime syndicates.

So far, 27 people have been arrested with further arrests anticipated throughout the day.

Firearms, drugs, cash, ammunition, vehicles and other stolen property has also been seized from a number of properties in the pre-dawn raids.

Police executed 44 warrants from 4.30am this morning at a number of metropolitan locations including Altona North, Williamstown, Truganina and Sunshine.

The warrants were executed as part of work being done by the Santiago Taskforce in relation to Middle Eastern crime syndicates.

The operation involves more than 500 Victoria Police staff along with a range of other support and law enforcement agencies.

The operation will continue throughout today.

Santiago Taskforce was set up by Victoria Police in October 2008 to address serious and organised crime including shooting incidents involving a number of families and their associates. They have made a significant number of arrests in relation to a wide range of offences.

The role of Santiago Taskforce is to prevent crimes against the person involving the use of firearms, kidnapping, other forms of extreme violence, drug trafficking, other firearm offences, organised motor vehicle theft and other serious crime.