Coronavirus 4 - Kingdom of the Crystal Skull

[think positive]

I don't want the government to "keep people safe". I want them to get the hell out of our lives and let people make their own choices.

Except when, as in this case, people are actually making choices that affect other people. It isn't a "choice" about an individual's private risk. It's a determination that taking the risk is fine because the disease probably won't worry them and they couldn't give a damn who else it kills. Vaccinations reduce transmissibility. Every person who is vaccinated reduces the likelihood of transmission to a vulnerable person.

Of course it should be mandated. It's like paying tax and going to school. Just something you have to do.

100% I can’t believe people don’t get this

[Jezza]

100% I can’t believe people don’t get this

I disagree. The motivation to get vaccinated is to protect your own health. I'm not concerned about other people's vaccination statuses. They can live with the consequences of their decisions.

Vaccinated and unvaccinated people can both transmit the virus, and the difference between the two groups is inconsequential on this front, especially with Omicron becoming the dominant strain now. Omicron spread across the world from Africa because of vaccinated travellers.

The reduced transmissibility argument is more relevant with respect to the earlier strains of the virus, but not Omicron which has found a way to evade the vaccines successfully.

The major difference between the two groups is the likelihood of suffering severe disease and/or death is much higher in the unvaccinated population than it is in the vaccinated population if you measure it across all age groups

A recently published study from The Lancet titled 'Transmissibility of SARS-CoV-2 among fully vaccinated individuals' backs up my above points, which states the following:

Vaccine effectiveness studies have conclusively demonstrated the benefit of COVID-19 vaccines in reducing individual symptomatic and severe disease, resulting in reduced hospitalisations and intensive care unit admissions. However, the impact of vaccination on transmissibility of SARS-CoV-2 needs to be elucidated. A prospective cohort study in the UK by Anika Singanayagam and colleagues regarding community transmission of SARS-CoV-2 among unvaccinated and vaccinated individuals provides important information that needs to be considered in reassessing vaccination policies. This study showed that the impact of vaccination on community transmission of circulating variants of SARS-CoV-2 appeared to be not significantly different from the impact among unvaccinated people. The scientific rationale for mandatory vaccination in the USA relies on the premise that vaccination prevents transmission to others, resulting in a “pandemic of the unvaccinated”. Yet, the demonstration of COVID-19 breakthrough infections among fully vaccinated health-care workers (HCW) in Israel, who in turn may transmit this infection to their patients, requires a reassessment of compulsory vaccination policies leading to the job dismissal of unvaccinated HCW in the USA.

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lani ... 4/fulltext

The push for further mandates needs to be debated extensively, especially whether it should apply to the entire population which is something the Victorian government has been advocating for recently.

[eddiesmith]

They are Trying to Keep People Safe.

IF you Choose not to get Vaccinated then you accept the Side Effects of Not getting the Vaccine

I don't want the government to "keep people safe". I want them to get the hell out of our lives and let people make their own choices.

I'm vaccinated. I'm just against mandates.

Yep, especially their new mandates meaning people who are currently vaccinated will no longer be vaccinated by Saturday…

Unsure if I’m unvaccinated as of this Saturday or got another 5 weeks? On the original announcement I had till 12th March, but now they’ve updated everything with new dates.

Oh well, guess I can’t go to work on Monday?

But I’ve heard some people say they’ve got messages to say they’re due for their boosters, have people been getting those?

[Pies4shaw]

A recently published study from The Lancet titled 'Transmissibility of SARS-CoV-2 among fully vaccinated individuals' backs up my above points

Not according to the authors of the study. That's because you were reading one American's brief comment on their research, not their research or their report from it.

The American's claim is specifically rejected by the authors of the study here: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lani ... 1/fulltext

Moreover, if you had read the report of the original study, you would realise that it was originally published in October last year and dealt with the Delta strain: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lani ... 4/fulltext

So, no, sorry - you aren't referring to a "recently published study", merely to a comment about it by some bloke who had nothing to do with it. The authors of the "recently published study" have responded to that bloke by telling him he's got the wrong end of the stick. Moreover, when you read the authors' report on the original study, you will see that it doesn't have anything to do with Omicron.

These are issues of some complexity. It is really important that people don't just trawl the internet for snippets that they think can be marshaled in support of their arguments, doubly so when people don't take the care to evaluate the nature and quality of that which they're relying upon.

I should add that each of the above complete links (including yours) will only work if you copy and paste their entirety into your search engine - for whatever reason, Nick's creates a "hot" link that doesn't include the entire url.

[Pies4shaw]

Reported today in Victoria:

Hospital: 575
ICU: 72
Ventilated: 30
Deaths: 20

and in NSW:

- 2,068 hospitalisations
- 132 people in ICU
- 18 deaths

[stui magpie]

The issue of transmission from vaxxed and unvaxxed people is indeed complicated and far from straight forward, particularly with Omicron.

In order to spread the virus you first have to catch it. It's very clear that fully vaxxed people are still catching it so the level of protection from infection is not great, but still better than being unvaxxed.

To the spreading, that's when it gets murkier.

Fully vaccinated people are likely to be infectious for a shorter time than unvaccinated because the immune system starts to kick in straight away. So by virtue of being infectious for longer, unvaccinated people have more opportunity to spread it to others.

Flipped side of that though is that fully vaccinated people are more likely to be asymptomatic and not even know they have the virus compared to unvaccinated people. So while someone who feels ill is going to stay away from people for a few days the person with no symptoms is happily spreading it to all their friends.

At the end of the day, it doesn't matter what your personal motivation is for getting vaccinated, for yourself, for others or because you have to for work, just do it.

[think positive]

This.

Just like whooping cough, polio etc etc. what is the problem? Really, please tell me.

Just imagine if the vaccine had not been developed? Where do you think we would be right now? There are people that genuinely cannot get the vaccine, there are people that are seriously at risk even though they are vaccinated, this is not a time to be selfish, the me me me population need to damn wake up. Will it take the death of a near and dear before they give a shit?

Give em a free Nike shirt! Just do it!

[Jezza]

This.

Just like whooping cough, polio etc etc. what is the problem? Really, please tell me.

Just imagine if the vaccine had not been developed? Where do you think we would be right now? There are people that genuinely cannot get the vaccine, there are people that are seriously at risk even though they are vaccinated, this is not a time to be selfish, the me me me population need to $$%^%%$ wake up. Will it take the death of a near and dear before they give a shit?

Give em a free Nike shirt! Just do it!

Are people not allowed to question the safety and efficacy of vaccines, especially as new variants emerge and evade the vaccines successfully.

Are they not allowed to question whether boosters will be on the radar for the foreseeable future and the medical implications of constantly having boosters?

Are not they allowed to be concerned about the lack of long term safety data with the vaccines?

Are they wrong to be concerned by the potential government overreach in denying people the right to personal choice?

I’m vaccinated myself, but even I had some of my own concerns around the vaccine (specifically the mRNA vaccines), with respect to inflammation of the heart muscle (I.e. myocarditis) due to being a young male in my 20s.

[Jezza]

Not according to the authors of the study. That's because you were reading one American's brief comment on their research, not their research or their report from it.

The American's claim is specifically rejected by the authors of the study here: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lani ... 1/fulltext

Moreover, if you had read the report of the original study, you would realise that it was originally published in October last year and dealt with the Delta strain: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lani ... 4/fulltext

So, no, sorry - you aren't referring to a "recently published study", merely to a comment about it by some bloke who had nothing to do with it. The authors of the "recently published study" have responded to that bloke by telling him he's got the wrong end of the stick. Moreover, when you read the authors' report on the original study, you will see that it doesn't have anything to do with Omicron.

These are issues of some complexity. It is really important that people don't just trawl the internet for snippets that they think can be marshaled in support of their arguments, doubly so when people don't take the care to evaluate the nature and quality of that which they're relying upon.

I should add that each of the above complete links (including yours) will only work if you copy and paste their entirety into your search engine - for whatever reason, Nick's creates a "hot" link that doesn't include the entire url.

Thank you for responding.

Yes, the study relates to the Delta strain which I should have noted earlier. However, Omicron has been a turning point with more vaccinated people suffering breakthrough infection than they did with the previous strain(s). This will only add to further questions and investigations as to whether the difference being the vaccinated and unvaccinated transmitting is significantly different or now inconsequential at best.

I don’t think it’s unreasonable to say in the current climate that the vaccines are less effective in preventing transmission, but are thankfully maintaining the high reduction in severe disease and death.

The basis for vaccine passports is that it’s to protect us from the unvaccinated, but I’m yet to be convinced that it’s working and is in fact doing more harm than good.

[Jezza]

China probably wanted it to get out

They closed Wuhan off from the rest of China, but allowed overseas travel to continue as normal.

[think positive]

Of course they can question it but they should be asking doctors not google. They should not be organising violent protests in the middle of a world wide pandemic. I questioned it too. I asked nurses and doctors.

As for the Chinese government , I don’t believe a word they have said. Somewhere there are mass graves. They chose to keep it quiet, they have massive amounts blood on their hands.


Free choice. Do you really think millions of soldiers over the years really wanted to die? Sometimes you have to do things for the greater good and not just think me me me me me. Every anti Vaxer I have listened to has one thing they are about. Themselves. And the dumb thing is they might be doing the one thing that kills them. I have a close friend who put up the biggest fight because she wants to know what’s going in her body. Aside from silicon and Botox of course!

I also know an obese anti vaxer, you think that’s smart?and who do you think she will turn too if she gets sick? it wont be doctor google

[stui magpie]

The basis for vaccine passports is that it’s to protect us from the unvaccinated, but I’m yet to be convinced that it’s working and is in fact doing more harm than good.

Right now we should be hoping as many of the unvaccinated (by choice) get out and get infected as possible.

[nomadjack]

I don’t think it’s unreasonable to say in the current climate that the vaccines are less effective in preventing transmission, but are thankfully maintaining the high reduction in severe disease and death.

But that's not what you said Jezza. You said: "Vaccinated and unvaccinated people can both transmit the virus, and the difference between the two groups is inconsequential on this front, especially with Omicron becoming the dominant strain now." Inconsequential is a far cry from being less effective.

The motivation to get vaccinated is to protect your own health. I'm not concerned about other people's vaccination statuses. They can live with the consequences of their decisions.

This is the absolute nub of it for me and the fundamental difference. I got vaccinated for my own health but also for the health of those around me (by this I mean family, friends etc, but also complete strangers). It's the same value competition over civic responsibility vs freedom from state control; the role of government etc that's at the heart of most of these debates. 'Do-gooders' versus 'selfish arseholes'.

[Dave The Man]

Pfizer is working on a Vaccine that Suppose to help people NOT get the Omnicon Variant

[stui magpie]

No vaccine is 100% effective and there will be more variants.

Stopping people catching it is less important than preventing serious illness and death when they do.