I can't resist it any longer
Joffa, Spidergirl's memberships are her concern and hers alone. It's a personal decision by her and is none of our business. You of all people should be aware of the dangers of making assumptions of other peoples' motives based on your own perceptions. You get frequent abuse from others doing exactly the same thing to you. Live and let live.
Rohan, your opinions are controversial and I think (my opinion) that you enjoy the reaction that you get, that's your prerogative, but don't yell foul when they get a reaction.
Rohan has a right to his opinions and as long as he stays away from defamatory remarks or personal abuse I have a duty to protect his right to state them. I often (usually) disagree with him and so, obviously do many others and our right to disagree is just as valid as Rohan's is to state his opinion ibn the first place. That's what a forum is all about.
Now, my opinion.
I wasn't disappointed that we didn't trade. I'm happy with what we have and am willing to trust that the football staff have the expertise to know who we need to get and who we should keep - and can do the job that they've been employed to do.
The argument that we have to get a ruckman and that Everitt or another star ruckman would put us in the top 4 is, in my opinion, without merit.
Firstly, we're going to be in the top 4 anyway - next year. Time for a prediction. Based on our form this season, even in losing matches, I predict that we'll make the four next year with a good chance of a premiership. I know this is early and that we won't be peaking until 2003 at the earliest, but at the moment we have an incredibly youthful, skillfull team who simply don't know that they are not yet good enough to be on top. It's going to be hard to beat.
Secondly, my personal belief is that the ruck is overrated. A ruck at the best of times is just a toss of the coin and noone knows where the ball is going to come out of a contest. This was demonstrated very clearly in the first half of this season. We were beaten in the ruck in all but 2 games, Fremantle (even) and WB, but we still dominated centre clearances - until it fell apart. The ability we showed in those early games was that we could take the ball from the ruck regardless of who won the hit-out and use it to our advantage. How often do you see a ruckman win the hit-out yet see the ball fall straight to an opposition player - frequently.
The real value of a ruckman to us is another marking tall, which, I admit, we could do with.
Have faith in the team that is maturing. Look at the potential stars and imagine what sort of powerhouse the Pies will be when they all hit their straps together. Not only do we have a bunch of incredibly talented youngsters, but they are all maturing together, they know each others game and they will develop as a unit not as a group of players employed to form a team. It's vitally important that we don't break that unit and destroy what has been created, and what has the potential to be one of the great aussie rules teams.
I know many of you hate the word potential, so do I - we've been using it to bolster ourselves for years. But that's all we have, even if we go out and buy star players (who then have to fit into the team), we still only have potential. We will only ever have potential until we turn it into results. I would much rather have potential than not have it.
Pathetic
Moderator: bbmods
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magpie jeff
Very true mike i would like to apologise for my emotional outburst and if i have bought this board into disrepute i profoundly apologise.
cheers mate
joffa
DONT BRING A KNIFE TO A GUNFIGHT...sean connery...the untouchables !!...DARREN MILLANE SIMPLY THE BEST...BETTER THAN ALL THE REST #42..GO OUR GLORIOUS BLACK AND WHITE MAGPIES FOR EVER UNTIL DEATH!!
cheers mate
joffa
DONT BRING A KNIFE TO A GUNFIGHT...sean connery...the untouchables !!...DARREN MILLANE SIMPLY THE BEST...BETTER THAN ALL THE REST #42..GO OUR GLORIOUS BLACK AND WHITE MAGPIES FOR EVER UNTIL DEATH!!
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magpie jeff
Very true mike i would like to apologise for my emotional outburst and if i have bought this board into disrepute i profoundly apologise.
cheers mate
joffa
DONT BRING A KNIFE TO A GUNFIGHT...sean connery...the untouchables !!...DARREN MILLANE SIMPLY THE BEST...BETTER THAN ALL THE REST #42..GO OUR GLORIOUS BLACK AND WHITE MAGPIES FOR EVER UNTIL DEATH!!
cheers mate
joffa
DONT BRING A KNIFE TO A GUNFIGHT...sean connery...the untouchables !!...DARREN MILLANE SIMPLY THE BEST...BETTER THAN ALL THE REST #42..GO OUR GLORIOUS BLACK AND WHITE MAGPIES FOR EVER UNTIL DEATH!!
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MarkT
- Posts: 1350
- Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2001 6:01 pm
- Location: Melb
Mike you are right in your comments about the forum and peoples opinions once again.
I do not always agree with Rohan either but there is truth at the heart of most of the opinions expressed here. Agenda's are another issue entirely.
As for the ruck situation, I don't agree with you. Hack ruckmen are very overrated. Quality ruckman are underrated (my opinion).
You are right that it is common to see the centre clearances to be decided indepentanly of the ruck contest. That is because either the on ballers are reading the opposition ruckman or he has no idea how to play his position. In our case, our on ballers seem to know we won't get the tap and play accordingly. That can work unless the opposition on ballers are at least your equal or until the opposition figure it out. Has anyone noticed that our on ballers are generally more effective in the first half of games?
If you look at Primus, he means more to Port than any other player. If you look at Essendon's losses - notably the one to Brisbane early in the season, they lost it in the ruck. In 1990, one of the keys to our win was Monkey in the ruck forcing Salmon to move from FF to cover Madden being beaten. I am sure you can point out more occassions where the ruck was irrelevant but I would say that is generally due to quality. Carlton's stop-plays are regarded as the best in the legue because they have a couple of very good "close in" on ballers and rucks that get it to them.
One final point on ruckwork. There is a world of differance in a good follower and a good ruckman. We do not have any canditate for ruck but we have some capable followers. In time Josh Fraser will be a fantastic follower. He may be a good ruckman but has not shown signs as yet. I do not know enough about Richards to comment except to say that Balm talks of 2 years development. As for McKee - I would be surprised if he ever made an adequate ruckman, although he may have follower or even CHB potential.
All that means is, in my opinion only, we despirately need a quality ruckman (and not much else) to reach our potential which otherwise appears almost unlimited.
I do not always agree with Rohan either but there is truth at the heart of most of the opinions expressed here. Agenda's are another issue entirely.
As for the ruck situation, I don't agree with you. Hack ruckmen are very overrated. Quality ruckman are underrated (my opinion).
You are right that it is common to see the centre clearances to be decided indepentanly of the ruck contest. That is because either the on ballers are reading the opposition ruckman or he has no idea how to play his position. In our case, our on ballers seem to know we won't get the tap and play accordingly. That can work unless the opposition on ballers are at least your equal or until the opposition figure it out. Has anyone noticed that our on ballers are generally more effective in the first half of games?
If you look at Primus, he means more to Port than any other player. If you look at Essendon's losses - notably the one to Brisbane early in the season, they lost it in the ruck. In 1990, one of the keys to our win was Monkey in the ruck forcing Salmon to move from FF to cover Madden being beaten. I am sure you can point out more occassions where the ruck was irrelevant but I would say that is generally due to quality. Carlton's stop-plays are regarded as the best in the legue because they have a couple of very good "close in" on ballers and rucks that get it to them.
One final point on ruckwork. There is a world of differance in a good follower and a good ruckman. We do not have any canditate for ruck but we have some capable followers. In time Josh Fraser will be a fantastic follower. He may be a good ruckman but has not shown signs as yet. I do not know enough about Richards to comment except to say that Balm talks of 2 years development. As for McKee - I would be surprised if he ever made an adequate ruckman, although he may have follower or even CHB potential.
All that means is, in my opinion only, we despirately need a quality ruckman (and not much else) to reach our potential which otherwise appears almost unlimited.
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woodsman 90
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Dantheman
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Sly
- Posts: 597
- Joined: Fri Dec 24, 1999 8:01 pm
- Location: Australia
I'm still interested to find out who Skob is.
Any idiot can throw money at a player - that's been evidenced by St. Kilda and Hamill.
<FONT size="3"><B>S.</FONT s>
<FONT COLOR="blue">The Last Remaining Bad Guy.</FONT c>
<FONT COLOR="red">The Incandescent One.</FONT c>
The Collingwood Rant.
[url=http://]<FONT COLOR="green">The AFL Ranting Board.</FONT c>[/url] </B>
Any idiot can throw money at a player - that's been evidenced by St. Kilda and Hamill.
<FONT size="3"><B>S.</FONT s>
<FONT COLOR="blue">The Last Remaining Bad Guy.</FONT c>
<FONT COLOR="red">The Incandescent One.</FONT c>
The Collingwood Rant.
[url=http://]<FONT COLOR="green">The AFL Ranting Board.</FONT c>[/url] </B>
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the prez
One thing I would like to point out to the people who whinge about our great club.When referring to the future playing stocks of Collingwood,stop trying to intentionally muddy the waters by stating that guys like Rupe,Dimma,Lane,etc are the players we're banking on.You know very well they aren't our future.Our future will be built on the shoulders of Fraser,the Davis boys,Obree,Chippa,Tarrant,Richards,lockyer,Rocca,Lonie,Clement,etc.These are the players of Collingwood's future.Remember that next time you want to create fear amongst us by saying we're relying on Dimma & co as the future of this club cause you know that is bullshit.
GO WOODS
GO WOODS
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Broadie
- Posts: 710
- Joined: Wed Feb 10, 1999 8:01 pm
- Location: VIC
Agree with all bar 1 of Mike's comments:
In my opinion, a VERY GOOD ruckman is the difference between a top 8 side and a potential grand-final side. If you look at most of the prvious 10 years, this statement holds true: Essendon is a case in point. Barnes was great in 2000, sorely missed in 2001 (Alessio was OK, not great). The Brisbane ruck combination works superbly, allowing their midfielders to take some predictability into their centre-square and stoppage set-ups.
The games we won well in 2001, we generally controlled ruck contests. Over the season, we were close to the worst in hit-outs: our losses showed incredible disparity in the hit-outs.
We need a real ruckmen. Josh will be a great follower, but premiership teams need more than just that these days.
Broadie
In my opinion, a VERY GOOD ruckman is the difference between a top 8 side and a potential grand-final side. If you look at most of the prvious 10 years, this statement holds true: Essendon is a case in point. Barnes was great in 2000, sorely missed in 2001 (Alessio was OK, not great). The Brisbane ruck combination works superbly, allowing their midfielders to take some predictability into their centre-square and stoppage set-ups.
The games we won well in 2001, we generally controlled ruck contests. Over the season, we were close to the worst in hit-outs: our losses showed incredible disparity in the hit-outs.
We need a real ruckmen. Josh will be a great follower, but premiership teams need more than just that these days.
Broadie
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Greg J
- Posts: 1509
- Joined: Thu May 13, 1999 6:01 pm
- Location: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia
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Rohan Coventry Tateson
The idea of trading this year was to take the next step and make finals next year. Make no mistake, if the club fails to make finals next year than the current administration must face heated debate, even possible demotion. The youth and patience line will be meaningless, as members will demand results and thus accountability.
Every successful side adds trades to their youngsters. Brisbane did it this year with Pike and Michael and Essendon did it with Barnard, Wellman and others. They complement experienced trades with younger draftees.
People say the right direction is to draft youngsters solely. If you look at the make up of the side you see that Licuira, Wakelin, Freeborn, Molloy, Steinfort, Lane, Ukovic and Clement are all traded players. So when people say the club is right by totally focusing on youth they are contradicting themselves.
You don't put all your eggs in one basket, you draft a mixture of youngsters coupled with experienced players. By this I don't mean one year (last year with Clement and co) but a number of years. All the successful sides have done this (my examples) and by not trading this year, Collingwood is walking a very fine line.
The prez raised how it's wrong to highlight Dimmitina, Lane, Betheras and Steinfort as our future. A capable side is not based on its top five players but its last five players. This is often called depth and is the sole reason sides are successful. If these guys are our bottom tier players (which they are) then this clubs future is very overrated.
In Skob We Trust
[This message has been edited by Rohan Coventry Tateson (edited 11 October 2001).]
Every successful side adds trades to their youngsters. Brisbane did it this year with Pike and Michael and Essendon did it with Barnard, Wellman and others. They complement experienced trades with younger draftees.
People say the right direction is to draft youngsters solely. If you look at the make up of the side you see that Licuira, Wakelin, Freeborn, Molloy, Steinfort, Lane, Ukovic and Clement are all traded players. So when people say the club is right by totally focusing on youth they are contradicting themselves.
You don't put all your eggs in one basket, you draft a mixture of youngsters coupled with experienced players. By this I don't mean one year (last year with Clement and co) but a number of years. All the successful sides have done this (my examples) and by not trading this year, Collingwood is walking a very fine line.
The prez raised how it's wrong to highlight Dimmitina, Lane, Betheras and Steinfort as our future. A capable side is not based on its top five players but its last five players. This is often called depth and is the sole reason sides are successful. If these guys are our bottom tier players (which they are) then this clubs future is very overrated.
In Skob We Trust
[This message has been edited by Rohan Coventry Tateson (edited 11 October 2001).]
