Things that make you go.......WTF?

[David]

Point is, maths is relevant to fields of work that maths is relevant to and not relevant to fields to which it isn't. And I dare say there are more than a few job descriptions in the latter category.

Otherwise, is it a good general life skill? For sure. That's what high school is for.

As I said above I'd consider it a positive educational policy if people were taught mathematics competently to school leaving level, and we could then assume that at tertiary level wherever it is necessary. Unfortunately our unruly public schools are not an easy place for people to learn rigorous and mentally challenging things (though mathematics is, in truth, easier to teach than English) so the universities have to pick up the slack, as they frequently do in English as well.

If we are to treat universities as trade schools then clearly there are a few tertiary subjects where maths is not relevant - music might be one - literature, perhaps. And advanced mathematics, as I said above, is not really the issue here. Tertiary courses where maths is irrelevant, however, are relatively few and these could be justified by exception.

The reason for keeping pressure for some mathematics in most degrees is that most people are more competent in most tertiary fields if they have sound mathematical skills. There will of course be laudable exceptions like P4Ss wife, but I suspect she is probably not typical. Without the positive pressure for graduates in most disciplines to have a reasonable grasp of mathematics, our universities will continue to turn out the semi-literate and largely innumerate young people who routinely find it hard to find work in the modern economy, and our economy will continue to fall down against the powerhouse economies of Asia.

In that regard, of course, a far, far greater issue in my view is the fact that we lag so terribly behind the Asian economies of the future in the number of STEM graduates we produce, and this is one factor behind our relative economic decline and poor innovation. In truth, I would be happy to leave the Sociology graduates alone if there were far fewer of them. But since we do educate large numbers of people in narrative-weaving and attitudinising, (often because we failed them earlier in their education, so they don't have enough maths for more practical subjects) it would be a good idea to ensure that they learnt something rigorous along the way.

Basically, it sounds like you're saying that, because our high school policies are failing, we need a different policy for tertiary education so that a) university students can waste a semester on something a great many of them already know or don't need, and b) people who don't/can't go to university (perhaps partially because of poor high school maths results!) miss out on that program altogether.

If high school policy is the problem, let's fix high school policy.

Perhaps universities should have mandatory logic classes so we wouldn't have to have silly arguments like this.

[Mugwump]

I suspect that we are in violent agreement that the ideal and better solution would be to fix the schools. Since that is a labour of Hercules and unlikely to happen, however, it is probably far easier to insert remedial mathematics at university level. It's not a difficult or silly argument to follow.

I can accept P4Ss point that it is would be cruel to exclude people from certain professions who are simply discalculaic but these folks are very few in number and it should be possible to work around that.

[HAL]

Oh you can, can you?

[ronrat]

[think positive]

I discovered just a few years ago that kids are getting to high school without knowing their times tables. Do you all remember (maybe not baby Jezza) chanting them at the start of every school day?

I'm not that young!

I remember learning my times tables in second and third grade (2002/2003) from 1 to 12 and I was able to understand the patterns and trends very quickly so I have no issues answering a multiplication question in my head within a few seconds.

Whether they still teach this to primary school kids these days is something I'm not sure about, but I've always assumed they continue to teach it.

They didn't at my daughters primary school, it was all about their new reading/spelling program, which I might add, failed miserably too! Thankfully the high school noticed and at least attempted to fix it.

[stui magpie]

Don't rely on schools to teach your kids the basics, if you haven't taught them to read and do basic maths before they get to school, they're in strife.

[Mugwump]

I discovered just a few years ago that kids are getting to high school without knowing their times tables. Do you all remember (maybe not baby Jezza) chanting them at the start of every school day?

I'm not that young!

I remember learning my times tables in second and third grade (2002/2003) from 1 to 12 and I was able to understand the patterns and trends very quickly so I have no issues answering a multiplication question in my head within a few seconds.

Whether they still teach this to primary school kids these days is something I'm not sure about, but I've always assumed they continue to teach it.

They didn't at my daughters primary school, it was all about their new reading/spelling program, which I might add, failed miserably too! Thankfully the high school noticed and at least attempted to fix it.

Seriously, how crap is that ? And Stui's point below .... Do you remember voting for schools that don't teach the times tables so parents have to do it as well ? I don't. I went to school in the state system in the 1960s and 70s, and the education was sound for the great majority of the kids who attended. Now, after decades of "progressive" reform, it is sound for kids who are privileged enough to have parents who will educate them twice over, or send them to private schools. The latest PISA rankings in Australia send a clear signal, and our politicians seemed largely unembarrassed and unapologetic about them.

[think positive]

Yeah I spent a lot of time helping my kids at home with maths and English. Some of the spelling and grammar from this generation coming into the work force now is really scary. Facebook posts drive me mad! I 'seen' that, or I 'done' that! Do people not read it back in their heads? Does it sound right to them? Without calculators and spell check they be stuffed!

[Mugwump]

For balance, I should add that of course it's not all bad. There is, for example, a young Australian maths teacher called Eddie Woo who has published his classes on YouTube (his channel is Wootube). He is a brilliant teacher, and a wonderful example of how mathematics, well-taught, can and should capture the imagination of anyone who can reason - the great majority of ordinary humans. Mathematics, in truth, is probably an easier subject to learn than English. Most people can understand the rules of algebra fairly quickly. It is far harder to describe, codify and transmit the rules and principles that make up good written English. Unfortunately we consider "I can't do maths" acceptable, in a way that "I can't write" would not be.

[HAL]

That is something I did not know before.

[stui magpie]

For balance, I should add that of course it's not all bad. There is, for example, a young Australian maths teacher called Jason Woo who has published his classes on YouTube (his channel is Wootube). He is a brilliant teacher, and a wonderful example of how mathematics, well-taught, can and should capture the imagination of anyone who can reason - the great majority of ordinary humans. Mathematics, in truth, is probably an easier subject to learn than English. Most people can understand the rules of algebra fairly quickly. It is far harder to describe, codify and transmit the rules and principles that make up good written English. Unfortunately we consider "I can't do maths" acceptable, in a way that "I can't write" would not be.

The best way to learn English is by reading. You pick up all the rules without actually knowing it. I never got the names, I still don't know a noun from a verb, but I can write OK.

[Mugwump]

Yeah, reading is instinctive in that way, but I went to school with plenty of kids who just could not do it as you describe. It was not dyslexia, it was an inability to recognise or hear how a sentence should look on the page or sound in the mind and then to write it thus. As TP says, some people seem to struggle to "hear" what they write.

Should add that I've now recalled it is Eddie Woo, not Jason.

[watt price tully]

Don't rely on schools to teach your kids the basics, if you haven't taught them to read and do basic maths before they get to school, they're in strife.

Stands & applauds. Education has always been the responsibility of parents. However de-funding schools never helps.

Both my children in primary went to a parent run school cooperative. Things were great till the main teacher (who combined maths & art & who was truly inspiring) retired. So I sent my kids to do Kumon after hours - Japanese method - like learning traditional Japanese martial arts - repeat & repeat again with small increments of learning allowing kids to do it at their own level & pace with in built positive reinforcers.

I dunne the Evlyn woodhead sped redding coarse & it imProVed my comprnshun wonder Fully.

[ronrat]

Don't think for a minute that Australian education is as bad as it sounds. In Thailand they pretty much pass every kid. Every time. My girlfriends eldest boy is 13 and is virtually illiterate. He turns 14 soon and hasn't been to class for 18 months. He will end up as a farm labourer, a criminal or maybe if lucky we can get him a job fixing motorbikes as he is quite adept at it.The youngest started junior high school and seems ok but he never seems to have homework that can't be done in 10 minutes on the internet.

Today a teacher in Thailand beat a 7 year old kid 99 times with a stick for leaving class. The kid has massive welts. My girlfriend shrugged. Police may investigate. They believe everything in Facebook must be real. I rarely see a newspaper in SE Asia although Singapore is an exception.

My Dad taught me probabilities and fractions by taking me to the races or the dogs Every birthday or Christmas I got books.A lifetime of reading has to start at home and not throwing the kids a phone. We went to the library every week. i could read before I went to school. My Dad time was a book before sleep. He would read it the first night and after that I had 2 read it next night. 3 books a week.Sunday was a day off because we had World of Sport, wrestling (Jack Little was a family friend) and cricket on the ABC.

[think positive]

Rhonda Rousey just made $3,000,000 in 48 sec flat. Was it worth it? Use what ever brains you may have left honey, and call it a day. **** the haters, let living well be the best revenge