#2 Jordan De Goey

[nomadjack]

^As I said, even worse; they knew about the disability and still set about publically humiliating and distressing someone with a condition prone to far greater levels of Rejection Sensitivity Dysmorphia, anxiety, depression and suicide. That's about as an egregious case of workplace discrimination, harassment and bullying as you will find anywhere.

What next? Pushing people in wheelchairs down flights of stairs? Because again, that's the correct medical analogy here.

And here you make exactly the same paternalistic assumptions and generalisations that you accuse TP of. You have absolutely no idea about how De Goey experiences ADHD or the impact it has on his behaviour. Yet you're happy to completely disregard his agency. You're simply generalising without any knowledge of his specific circumstances despite knowing full well how diverse the range of experiences are. You can dress it up however you like, but you're guessing from a distance. Yet you're happy to slag off on the club which has a far clearer understanding of his specific circumstances.

[pietillidie]

No, sorry, that's medically false. Experience of condition is not biology of condition; we do indeed know the threshold boundaries of the diagnosis or there would not be a diagnosis according to known diagnostic criteria. Medical and given fact. Experience doesn't mean any experience; he's not experiencing ADHD as if it's inflammatory bowel disease. The diagnosis is ADHD, not a disassociative disorder or anything else you want to dream up.

You can't expose people with ADHD, and even less so a late-diagnosed adult, like that in the workplace. You can't give a 15-minute shame speech like that about someone with that condition, even if they agreed to apologise. Are you saying you think the lad personally approved the way the club handled his situation, and that it should give a 15-minute public televised statement as Anderson delivered, according to script, and this was done according to medical advice?

You're playing silly buggers in a desperate pursuit of someone. A woman who showed no distress on camera in a public place, and who clearly asserted her negotiation, naturally and with free will unimpeded, versus someone showing severe distress, unable to attend work, having been hounded and harassed and humiliated for days, with a known serious diagnosis, surrounded by people incentivised by money and self-interest, and you reckon you understand power?

Wholly unacceptable and wholly unethical, bordering on outright malicious. At best, an extremely ill-advised effort to grind someone with a far greater risk of suicide than the average person into the turf.

[Woods]

Unconfirmed, but I have reason to think that JD (and/or the girl) might be dropped into the Big Brother house while JD is on personal leave. In management discussion I believe. Opportunity for JD to rehabilitate his character in the public eye on his own terms (just like Buckley did in the ‘Get me Outa Here’ gig in the jungle earlier this year).
Will be a huge ratings blockbuster for 7 if it goes ahead. And maybe a six figure sum for JD (who needs footy eh?). Will also pitch 9’s footy commentary team and newsroom opinion against 7’s (there’s a new AFL broadcast agreement in the making - so its network war). The Big Brother show is already flagging a surprise for Monday evening. Fun for all the family. Wait and see.

[think positive]

^As I said, even worse; they knew about the disability and still set about publically humiliating and distressing someone with a condition prone to far greater levels of Rejection Sensitivity Dysmorphia, anxiety, depression and suicide. That's about as an egregious case of workplace discrimination, harassment and bullying as you will find anywhere.

What next? Pushing people in wheelchairs down flights of stairs? Because again, that's the correct medical analogy here.

And here you make exactly the same paternalistic assumptions and generalisations that you accuse TP of. You have absolutely no idea about how De Goey experiences ADHD or the impact it has on his behaviour. Yet you're happy to completely disregard his agency. You're simply generalising without any knowledge of his specific circumstances despite knowing full well how diverse the range of experiences are. You can dress it up however you like, but you're guessing from a distance. Yet you're happy to slag off on the club which has a far clearer understanding of his specific circumstances.

No, sorry, that's medically false. Experience of condition is not biology of condition; we do indeed know the threshold boundaries of the diagnosis or there would not be a diagnosis according to known diagnostic criteria. Medical and given fact. Experience doesn't mean any experience; he's not experiencing ADHD as if it's inflammatory bowel disease.

You can't expose people with ADHD, and even less so a late-diagnosed adult, like that in the workplace. You can't give a 15-minute shame speech like that about someone with that condition, even if they agreed to apologise. Are you saying you think the lad personally approved the way the club handled his situation, and that it should give a 15-minute public televised statement as Anderson delivered, according to script, and this was done according to medical advice?

You're playing silly buggers in a desperate pursuit of someone. A woman who showed no distress on camera in a public place, and who asserted her negotiation, naturally and with free will unimpeded,versus someone showing severe distress, unable to attend work, having been hounded and harassed and humiliated for days, with a known serious diagnosis, surrounded by people incentivised by money and self-interest, and you reckon you understand power?

Wholly unacceptable and wholly unethical in ill-advised pursuit of grinding someone with a far greater risk of suicide than the average person into the turf.

ok so anyone with ADHD, sorry late diagnosis ADHD gets a free pass to drunk drive, speeding, (thankyou pies2016, spot on) be a sleaze bag with women, get in punch ups, and no one is allowed to tell them off in case they get upset? right got it!


you keep banging on about the woman not caring, but the reason the club and poeple like me have lost patience is the sum of alllll his indescretions, at least 1 per year, go back a page or two, its interesting reading. this was that final straw on the camels back. oh and shame speach? for **** the club have been amazing, all they said was they dont condone degrading treatment of women! shame on them!

cheers also Nomadjack!

[Magpietothemax]

ok so anyone with ADHD, sorry late diagnosis ADHD gets a free pass to drunk drive, speeding, (thankyou pies2016, spot on) be a sleaze bag with women, get in punch ups, and no one is allowed to tell them off in case they get upset? right got it!


you keep banging on about the woman not caring, but the reason the club and poeple like me have lost patience is the sum of alllll his indescretions, at least 1 per year, go back a page or two, its interesting reading. this was that final straw on the camels back. oh and shame speach? for **** the club have been amazing, all they said was they dont condone degrading treatment of women! shame on them!

cheers also Nomadjack!

He is not saying that anyone with ADHD has a free pass for all the misdemeanours you are mentioning. He is saying that anyone with ADHD should not be forced to publicly humiliate themselves - especially just because certain elements in society, such as Me Too supporters, decide that his behaviour was mysogynist.

[nomadjack]

No, sorry, that's medically false. Experience of condition is not biology of condition; we do indeed know the threshold boundaries of the diagnosis or there would not be a diagnosis according to known diagnostic criteria. Medical and given fact. Experience doesn't mean any experience; he's not experiencing ADHD as if it's inflammatory bowel disease. The diagnosis is ADHD, not a disassociative disorder or anything else you want to dream up.

That's simply not true. Of course there are minimum diagnostic thresholds for identifying ADHD. Over and above these thresholds, people experience the condition in a multitude of ways and react to therapy and treatment in different ways as well. You have absolutely no idea what Jordan's experience is. Stop pretending that you do. You also have no idea what agreements or understandings (if any) have been put in place between Jordy and the club either prior or post this latest incident or what the relationship is between him and various elements within the club.

I'm not pursuing anybody, and I'm not sure how you come to that conclusion. I'm saying your hyperbolic criticism of the club's position is naive, unreasonable and largely based on assumptions which you simply don't have the proximity or knowledge to substantiate.

And if you want to talk about understanding power, stop and think for half a minute about the position the club has been put in...again. It's easy to sit back in the cheap seats and flippantly argue the club's big enough and ugly enough to look after itself. You know as well as I do it's nowhere near as simple as that in the current environment, particularly given Jordys backstory and in the context of Do Better. For right or wrong, that's the context, and wishing it away doesn't work and never has.

[pietillidie]

No, sorry, that's medically false. Experience of condition is not biology of condition; we do indeed know the threshold boundaries of the diagnosis or there would not be a diagnosis according to known diagnostic criteria. Medical and given fact. Experience doesn't mean any experience; he's not experiencing ADHD as if it's inflammatory bowel disease. The diagnosis is ADHD, not a disassociative disorder or anything else you want to dream up.

That's simply not true. Of course there are minimum diagnostic thresholds for identifying ADHD. Over and above these thresholds, people experience the condition in a multitude of ways and react to therapy and treatment in different ways as well. You have absolutely no idea what Jordan's experience is. Stop pretending that you do. You also have no idea what agreements or understandings (if any) have been put in place between Jordy and the club either prior or post this latest incident or what the relationship is between him and various elements within the club.

I'm not pursuing anybody, and I'm not sure how you come to that conclusion. I'm saying your hyperbolic criticism of the club's position is naive, unreasonable and largely based on assumptions which you simply don't have the proximity or knowledge to substantiate.

And if you want to talk about understanding power, stop and think for half a minute about the position the club has been put in...again. It's easy to sit back in the cheap seats and flippantly argue the club's big enough and ugly enough to look after itself. You know as well as I do it's nowhere near as simple as that in the current environment, particularly given Jordys backstory and in the context of Do Better. For right or wrong, that's the context, and wishing it away doesn't work and never has.

No, medical ethics and workplace law are the context, and you can cling to the coattails of organisational power and authority all you like, but if you think anyone in the medical profession or anyone with a knowledge of workplace law would advise submitting someone with a that diagnosis under treatment to that sort of shame and humiliation, you're utterly clueless and ought to take leave of the subject altogether. Not one professional business, corporation or public company I have ever worked with would make anything like that sort of monumental, egregiously unethical, completely ill-advised mistake. Not one of them. But have known of several shabby firms who have been sued and lost heavily at tribunal for this sort of behaviour.

I tell you, they'll be very lucky if mental illness organisations don't create a far bigger PR problem for them than you dare dream. Imagine something happens to the lad. We'll be dead an buried as an organisation by tomorrow afternoon, and there you'll be, still claiming he might have been experiencing ADHD like a a pulled hamstring for all we know, because 'no one can really know what he was really experiencing'.

[think positive]

ok so anyone with ADHD, sorry late diagnosis ADHD gets a free pass to drunk drive, speeding, (thankyou pies2016, spot on) be a sleaze bag with women, get in punch ups, and no one is allowed to tell them off in case they get upset? right got it!


you keep banging on about the woman not caring, but the reason the club and poeple like me have lost patience is the sum of alllll his indescretions, at least 1 per year, go back a page or two, its interesting reading. this was that final straw on the camels back. oh and shame speach? for **** the club have been amazing, all they said was they dont condone degrading treatment of women! shame on them!

cheers also Nomadjack!

He is not saying that anyone with ADHD has a free pass for all the misdemeanours you are mentioning. He is saying that anyone with ADHD should not be forced to publicly humiliate themselves - especially just because certain elements in society, such as Me Too supporters, decide that his behaviour was mysogynist.

NO ONE should ever be forced to publicly humiliate themselves.

EVERYONE should apologise when they **** up.

[Magpietothemax]

ok so anyone with ADHD, sorry late diagnosis ADHD gets a free pass to drunk drive, speeding, (thankyou pies2016, spot on) be a sleaze bag with women, get in punch ups, and no one is allowed to tell them off in case they get upset? right got it!


you keep banging on about the woman not caring, but the reason the club and poeple like me have lost patience is the sum of alllll his indescretions, at least 1 per year, go back a page or two, its interesting reading. this was that final straw on the camels back. oh and shame speach? for **** the club have been amazing, all they said was they dont condone degrading treatment of women! shame on them!

cheers also Nomadjack!

He is not saying that anyone with ADHD has a free pass for all the misdemeanours you are mentioning. He is saying that anyone with ADHD should not be forced to publicly humiliate themselves - especially just because certain elements in society, such as Me Too supporters, decide that his behaviour was mysogynist.

NO ONE should ever be forced to publicly humiliate themselves.

EVERYONE should apologise when they **** up.

But he was forced to publicly humiliate himself.
Not everyone thinks that his behaviour was so bad that he should have to publicly apologise.

[think positive]

He chose to publicly humiliate himself in Bali,

He could have refused to be filmed, he could refuse his match payments.

He made a choice to keep getting paid.

The people that pay him clearly think he needed to apologise.

[Magpietothemax]

He chose to publicly humiliate himself in Bali,

He could have refused to be filmed, he could refuse his match payments.

He made a choice to keep getting paid.

Back to square one.
He chose to have a good time in Bali, with a willing female acquaintance.
Letting himself be filmed was a poor decision, I agree.
But your criticisms of him have not been based on that.
Rather, your arguments have been based on condemning him for disrespect to women, mysogny, etc

[think positive]

And I stand by it

I have also said many times, it’s not just Bali, for me or the club, it’s all the bad press, every year since 2017, this was just the last straw

[pietillidie]

Serious question to those who know more about ADHD than I do.
On the back of multiple driving offences, should DeGoey also be afforded an amount of empathy because seemingly his ADHD doesn’t allow him to drive within the road laws?

Empathy and safety are not the same thing, though, while no laws were broken, so that analogy doesn't work. No one wants someone's driving mistake to kill someone else, which is why there are traffic laws and violation penalties, as well as a general requirement to report anything that impacts your driving, whether be an injury, condition or treatment, and to not drive if anything, even temporary, affects safe driving (including if a person's ADHD or ADHD medication happens to do this, BTW).

No amount of empathy changes those laws, while no amount of lack of empathy magically invents new laws. Meanwhile, being a silly bugger by inviting unwanted scrutiny is not against any known law. So, it might be that you get annoyed, offer some stern advice, seek medical and legal advice on how to engage such a person, and indeed if you're half decent, self-aware and not a complete hypocrite or psychopath, show empathy.

There's no law against all poor decisions for good reason, otherwise we'd all be locked up at some point. But there are regulations proscribing the bullying, harrassing, demeaning and victimising of people with disabilities in the workplace, because these things are especially egregious.

And, as discussed ad infinitum, in the instance under discussion and recorded on video and to the extent that any of us are aware, the lad has broken no laws, done nothing that isn't done at clubs and pubs country-wide and indeed in Bali, has not been the subject of complaint, and has not been of danger to anyone.

Beating down people for behaving differently to oneself might be how religious leaders or warlords living in a Taliban stronghold behave, but it's certainly not how we should behave, and even less so when someone has a condition associated with Rejection Sensitivity Dysmorphia, anxiety, depression and a greater risk of suicide, who has only just started out on the path of treatment. And as I say, workplaces have laws governing them for just these occasions given how damaging such bullying of people, and disabled people especially, can be.

[Pies4shaw]

^ You're completely missing 2016's point. Driving laws were broken - many and varied - and some that carry the risk of a prison term. 2016 wasn't posing an "analogy" - the premise was an uncontroversial, known fact.

[Big T]

Any parking or littering violations you lot wanna drag up, or maybe he was done by the hall monitor for farting in grade 3?

We get it, he has a history. You see the crimes as far more serious than we do.

You know what, I don't want perfect citizens at collingwood, and that is certainly not the history of our club.

I want men and women who live for the jumper and want to win more than anything else.

He has apologized, he has explained himself, what more do u want.