Trump abandons the Kurds

Post by **David** » Sat Oct 12, 2019 9:32 pm

Instances of isolated hate crimes don't necessarily prove systematic race-based dispossession and violence, though. I haven't studied South Africa deeply enough to be sure on where the truth lies on this, but links like the ones P4S provides do offer credibility to the suggestion that those claims are being majorly overstated in certain quarters.

Morrigu · Post by **Morrigu** » Sat Oct 12, 2019 9:56 pm

^ crime in general in SA is out of control against whites,blacks,purples and anything in between unfortunately. At the moment in SA it is violence directed at mainly black immigrants from other African countries with struggling economies - we are frequent visitors so tend to keep a bit of an eye on it. The ANC have failed their people in spectacular fashion - turning in his grave would be one Mandella - the greed and corruption of their politicians is truly eye watering!!

The murder of those 2 young folks seems not to be a " hate crime" per se - just the usual organised crime, gang related violence

https://benonicitytimes.co.za/346647/pr ... le-murder/

pietillidie · Post by **pietillidie** » Sat Oct 12, 2019 10:06 pm

pietillidie wrote:
Jezza wrote:
swoop42 wrote:Stabbed in the back. Again!

Sadly predictable move by Trump and the United States.
How much longer do you want the US occupying Syria?

It's a never ending war.
No, pathetic defence. Even worse than the arguments offered for invading Afghanistan and Iraq.

If you want to hand over the responsibility of protecting the vulnerable, stop white anting the UN and start supporting them in the role everyone sane has wanted them to take over from the US for decades now.

And to say that as he spends hundreds of millions (billions?) needlessly supporting Saudi Arabia is farcical.

There is no list of talking points that can magically transform this horror. There is no fudging and no moral complexity about it: Trump and his vile cronies were warned a bloodbath would ensue, just as George W. was warned that the Coalition of the Willing would not be welcomed in complex multi-party environments they knew nothing about, and only chaos would ensue.

The corrupt dealings involved in George W's callous decisions have long been exposed; Trump's corrupt dealings are being exposed by the minute. But even if you try to hold back the tide by denying those, the Saudi Arabia troops, a mere five minutes after the Kurd abandonment, are indisputable public fact. 'Tiring of endless war' is an outright lie.

Speaking of white anting the UN, one odd occurrence is that I read about those great allies the US and Russia vetoing a draft UN resolution on Syria a couple of days ago, but it's since fallen off the map in Google, so I can only find it on obscure sites such as this:

https://euobserver.com/foreign/146242

Post by **stui magpie** » Sat Oct 12, 2019 10:59 pm

Morrigu wrote:^ crime in general in SA is out of control against whites,blacks,purples and anything in between unfortunately. At the moment in SA it is violence directed at mainly black immigrants from other African countries with struggling economies - we are frequent visitors so tend to keep a bit of an eye on it. The ANC have failed their people in spectacular fashion - turning in his grave would be one Mandella - the greed and corruption of their politicians is truly eye watering!!

The murder of those 2 young folks seems not to be a " hate crime" per se - just the usual organised crime, gang related violence

https://benonicitytimes.co.za/346647/pr ... le-murder/

Mugabe started off with saying the right things and turned into a corrupt dictator who destroyed a country.

Mandella started off saying the right things, and stuck to it. He was never corrupted (as far as I know) but it grew around him and once he was gone........

Democracy doesn't work when the people are only used to a single ruler situation.

watt price tully · Post by **watt price tully** » Sun Oct 13, 2019 6:09 pm

F*ck you Trump, you're personally responsible for the Turkish murders you ars*hole

https://www.timesofisrael.com/kurdish-p ... s-monitor/

https://m.jpost.com/Middle-East/Turkish ... ria-604496

watt price tully · Post by **watt price tully** » Sun Oct 13, 2019 6:13 pm

Chris Uhlmann's analysis unfortunately continues to nail it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6_ckWZCHW4

Hope you get run over by the next bus Trump, you murderous c*nt (& p*ick)

Post by **David** » Mon Oct 14, 2019 9:56 am

Post by **David** » Mon Oct 14, 2019 10:38 am

pietillidie · Post by **pietillidie** » Mon Oct 14, 2019 11:51 am

^Once you're there, and you've insinuated yourself into the ecology, the moral responsibility is significantly yours to bear. The key is not to physically engage opaque, complex, historical, multi-party messes, especially when there is a risk of commercial conflict of interest, except in a diplomatic/peacekeeping/development capacity.

The absolutely last thing you do is rightly oppose endless wars of interference, only to suddenly abandon a situation you have already taken responsibility for (even if in error), and then go out and take on yet another war elsewhere.

Post by **David** » Mon Oct 14, 2019 11:54 am

PTID, I completely share your revulsion with Trump's military support of Saudi Arabia in Yemen. But isn't that just whataboutery in this context? Surely the pressing question at hand is how this specific situation should have been handled. Some may rightfully ask, if the US had a moral obligation to stay in northern Syria, was it an eternal one? Would the risk of Turkish reprisals, surely planned ages ago for the very minute US forces left, ever go away?

pietillidie · Post by **pietillidie** » Mon Oct 14, 2019 11:59 am

David wrote:PTID, I completely share your revulsion with Trump's military support of Saudi Arabia in Yemen. But isn't that just whataboutery in this context? Surely the pressing question at hand is how this specific situation should have been handled. Some may rightfully ask, if the US had a moral obligation to stay in northern Syria, was it an indefinite one? Would the risk of Turkish reprisals, surely planned ages ago for the very minute US forced left, ever go away?

No, it's gross moral failure. As explained, you've already insinuated yourself and taken on the moral responsibility. Moreover, you know exactly what is about to happen.

pietillidie · Post by **pietillidie** » Mon Oct 14, 2019 12:06 pm

We've had years to work this out since Afghanistan, and people are still getting distracted by the partisan nonsense. Apparently, rather than learning from experience and developing more robust ideas and principles, people's brains simply reset between disasters.

Wokko · Post by **Wokko** » Mon Oct 14, 2019 12:09 pm

I have similar feelings David, the US can't and shouldn't stay forever and as we see in Afghanistan, trying to stay until the place is up and running and can take care of itself is a long and bloody process.

The USA had no reason to be in Syria in the first place, it's Russia's sphere of influence and they were doing the heavy lifting there. While I think the Kurds have a right to feel led on, it was political naivety to think that Syria, Iraq and Turkey would just allow them to create an independent state from the chaos of Isis and the Syrian Civil War.

FWIW it looks like they're going to take the option of surrendering to Assad and allowing the SAA in, backed by the RuAF. A unified Syria is probably the best option.

Post by **David** » Mon Oct 14, 2019 12:36 pm

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Trump abandons the Kurds