Saudi Arabia

[think positive]

Funny ****!

[stui magpie]

[Mugwump]

^ PTID, we are talking about 25% sympathy with mass murder. That's a different order of problem from a few people who hold unpleasant views. That's 25% of a large population of people who have a primary loyalty to violent fascism, rather than civil society. It's also a proportion that has not chnaged in 30 years, within a population that has sharply increased. Good luck as you allow that to grow. Poor Germany.

[HAL]

Please make some suggestions for improvement.

[David]

^ PTID, we are talking about 25% sympathy with mass murder. That's a different order of problem from a few people who hold unpleasant views. That's 25% of a large population of people who have a primary loyalty to violent fascism, rather than civil society. It's also a proportion that has not chnaged in 30 years, within a population that has sharply increased. Good luck as you allow that to grow. Poor Germany.

As PTID points out, statistics like this exist everywhere. At least a couple of years back, a comparable proportion of Americans thought that a pre-emptive strike on Iran would have been a good idea, an act that would have killed hundreds to thousands of innocent civilians, turned the Middle East into an even bigger crap show than it is now and potentially triggered World War 3 with Russia. A similar percentage think the world was created in 7 days. And so on. Clearly, a functional society can survive such beliefs being prevalent.

[pietillidie]

^ PTID, we are talking about 25% sympathy with mass murder. That's a different order of problem from a few people who hold unpleasant views. That's 25% of a large population of people who have a primary loyalty to violent fascism, rather than civil society. It's also a proportion that has not chnaged in 30 years, within a population that has sharply increased. Good luck as you allow that to grow. Poor Germany.

I am sure I recall my parent's generation discussing Italian and Greek immigrant sympathies for brutal dictators and the like, too.

I just don't see the problematic German data. I see social media wars, far-right hysteria, reports of reports, conspiracies of underreporting, and such, but no data worse than most immigrant communities. The US *has long had* far more violent suburbs than Germany could dream of, and I see shoulder-shrugging and a large swathe of the population glorying in opposing dealing with it through gun control, and drug and prostitution legalisation.

But no, it's Germany, a country kicking arse along most measures, which is falling into the sea. I mean, really? Immigration has never been a picnic, and each wave has brought with it unique challenges, but it's weirdo-in-Y-fronts-on-the-computer-too-long imaginations that are falling into the sea, not the country itself.

Chances are, many Japanese, Vietnamese, Turks, Chinese, Russians, Indians, <insert group>, and such, hold views that would horrify you. Large percentages of Americans hold ostensibly *frightening* and violent views. Time wasting megalomaniac Trump gets openly cheered for violently racist public pronouncements on Mexicans and Muslims - a step far worse than privately-held repugnant views.

Yes, I worry about these things to the point of opposing and contradicting them, but there's a difference between concern and productive policy, and destructive, distracting, misallocating hysteria. And there are plenty of sinister local emotions and vile views taking refuge within that din of hysteria that could also do with some attention, if there's any left to spare.

For the record, I see a need for proportionate concern, productive ideas and policy on social cohesion, ongoing strong support for domestic security measures, and a seismic shift in energy policy to begin restructuring oil economies from North Africa to Russia. But none of this other apocalyptic rot.

[Mugwump]

^ PTID, we are talking about 25% sympathy with mass murder. That's a different order of problem from a few people who hold unpleasant views. That's 25% of a large population of people who have a primary loyalty to violent fascism, rather than civil society. It's also a proportion that has not chnaged in 30 years, within a population that has sharply increased. Good luck as you allow that to grow. Poor Germany.

As PTID points out, statistics like this exist everywhere. At least a couple of years back, a comparable proportion of Americans thought that a pre-emptive strike on Iran would have been a good idea, an act that would have killed hundreds to thousands of innocent civilians, turned the Middle East into an even bigger crap show than it is now and potentially triggered World War 3 with Russia. A similar percentage think the world was created in 7 days. And so on. Clearly, a functional society can survive such beliefs being prevalent.

Actually I am not sure that the proposition has yet been tested that a society can survive a large fifth column amid escalating acts of terrorism. And I am not sure that I'd describe a society where 3000 people were killed in one act in central New York as a truly "functional" society. Most societies are "functional" to some extent, if you accept regular outbreaks of indiscriminate mass murder as just the way things are. That's not the test in my eyes.

A pre-emptive strike on Iran is a matter of military calculation about an event which did not happen and was not likely to. In fact, quite the opposite happened. What people think about events that have happened is very different to a theoretical question. 9/11 did happen. Charlie Hebdo happened. Bataclan happened. London, Madrid, Mumbai and Nairobi happened... etc If you were importing a number of far-right thugs amid a population 25% of whom sympathised with blowing up gay bars and bombing migrant shelters, and you saw a succession of deaths in the 100s and thousands from such acts, would you try to shut off the flow ? And increase the control over far-right meeting places ?

[pietillidie]

Afghanistan and Iraq happened based on horrifically-misguided *non-immigrant community* views. The GFC happened based on several misguided theses, one being the need to fund those wars. That line of reasoning could be endless.

Germany isn't falling into the sea, but North Africa to Russia *is* getting less stable and producing more threats. Germany isn't falling into the sea, but the old economies are in *relative* decline and struggling to pay for their standard of living due to a lack of cohesion not between ethnic groups, but vertically across tax-paying classes.

Again, it's the misallocation of public attention here which is the most destructive aspect of the hysteria.

[Morrigu]

But no, it's Germany, a country kicking arse along most measures, which is falling into the sea. I mean, really. Immigration has never been a picnic, and each wave has brought with it unique challenges .

Especially if you are female it seems!! And even the rubbish Guardian can't just blame it on the " racists"!!!

Tensions rise in Germany over handling of mass sexual assaults in Cologne

Police and media accused of cover-up to avoid stoking anti-immigrant feeling after witnesses say men who carried out attacks were of Arab appearance

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/j ... in-cologne

Oh by the way did I mention my colleague who was raped by one of these poor misunderstood recently arrived migrants whilst volunteering her nursing skills resulting in the loss of her baby tested positive to Hep C so now has that to deal with as well - he'll get away with it as there is no way in hell she will every return to Germany ever

What has this got to do with the topic - the attitude of many many many men of Islamic faith towards women - their own and Western women is prehistoric and they have no interest in changing it - why would they suits them too much and the Saudi's are amongst the worst - they are paying lip service to change - nothing more!!!

[Mugwump]

^ Afghanistan happened because of 9/11 and it was an entirely justified attempt to root out a government that aided and abetted an atrocity on American soil. Iraq was significantly caused by the fact that people were persuaded that WMDs in the hands of an inveterate enemy, could be transferred to the kinds of groups that committed 9/11. That was Blair's argument, and many British people found it thoroughly persuasive. I wasn't persuaded but I could see the point. If the WMDs had been there, it might have seemed a reasonable case in self-defence.

A large criminal gang committing mass murder in our country supported by 25% of a large immigrant community who hold loyalties outside our nation is clearly a different class of problem.

[pietillidie]

Can't disagree with any of that, Morrigu.

[Mugwump]

But no, it's Germany, a country kicking arse along most measures, which is falling into the sea. I mean, really. Immigration has never been a picnic, and each wave has brought with it unique challenges .

Especially if you are female it seems!! And even the rubbish Guardian can't just blame it on the " racists"!!!

Tensions rise in Germany over handling of mass sexual assaults in Cologne

Police and media accused of cover-up to avoid stoking anti-immigrant feeling after witnesses say men who carried out attacks were of Arab appearance

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/j ... in-cologne

Oh by the way did I mention my colleague who was raped by one of these poor misunderstood recently arrived migrants whilst volunteering her nursing skills resulting in the loss of her baby tested positive to Hep C so now has that to deal with as well - he'll get away with it as there is no way in hell she will every return to Germany ever

What has this got to do with the topic - the attitude of many many many men of Islamic faith towards women - their own and Western women is prehistoric and they have no interest in changing it - why would they suits them too much and the Saudi's are amongst the worst - they are paying lip service to change - nothing more!!!

That is such a terrible story, Morrigu. What happened in Koln on new year's eve is all over the papers in Europe. Lots of young men (1.1M this year) all at once, with few skills and few economic options, from a violent conflict and a culture with (let's be kind) difficult attitudes to women. What could possibly go wrong ?

As for the Saudis, the regime collapse will probably come well before liberalisation of women's role. Actually, they'll be lucky to survive their present economic gamble with the oil price. What comes after that will probably be as bad, or worse.

[pietillidie]

^ Afghanistan happened because of 9/11 and it was an entirely justified attempt to root out a government that aided and abetted an atrocity on American soil. Iraq was significantly caused by the fact that people were persuaded that WMDs in the hands of an inveterate enemy, could be transferred to the kinds of groups that committed 9/11. That was Blair's argument, and many British people found it thoroughly persuasive. I wasn't persuaded but I could see the point. If the WMDs had been there, it might have seemed a reasonable case in self-defence.

A large criminal gang committing mass murder in our country supported by 25% of a large immigrant community who hold loyalties outside our nation is clearly a different class of problem.

Now you're misallocating by obsessing over one single data point you think justifies your viscera.

There are shite ideas all over the shop. Opposing them makes good sense. Elevating one over all of the others doesn't.

This is particularly true when the concern over that one issue is itself further misallocated, focusing on the superficialities of religion instead of the root of the actual problem, economics.

By willfully remaining dependent on oil, we are actively supporting the very economic dysfunction which underpins and funds terrorism, and is blocking a new regional resolution of the sort Europe and Asia achieved long ago.

Seeking a new resolution will be chaotic, but it has an end game and is surely not a worse option than the present carnage and whacko terrorist interregnum. Supporting ad hoc tyrannies such as Saudi Arabia and Qatar only prolongs terrorism funding and motivation, and delays resolution.

This is about as obvious as geopolitics gets; I mean, if that much can't be learned from the horror and debacle of Afghanistan and Iraq then god help us all.

Mercifully, we have better institutions and more wealthy economies in the mix which can come together to try to minimise the carnage of any new resolution. Drip-fed carnage over decades with no end in sight is neither a more preferable nor more merciful kind of carnage, especially as it also causing irreparable environmental harm of various kinds.

Start turning off the oil purchase tap, and stop interfering hysterically and unproductively.

[HAL]

I wish you the best of luck finding a new resolution will be chaotic but it has an end game is not a worse option than the present carnage and whacko terrorist interregnum.

[Mugwump]

^ Afghanistan happened because of 9/11 and it was an entirely justified attempt to root out a government that aided and abetted an atrocity on American soil. Iraq was significantly caused by the fact that people were persuaded that WMDs in the hands of an inveterate enemy, could be transferred to the kinds of groups that committed 9/11. That was Blair's argument, and many British people found it thoroughly persuasive. I wasn't persuaded but I could see the point. If the WMDs had been there, it might have seemed a reasonable case in self-defence.

A large criminal gang committing mass murder in our country supported by 25% of a large immigrant community who hold loyalties outside our nation is clearly a different class of problem.

Now you're misallocating by obsessing over one single data point you think justifies your viscera.

There are shite ideas all over the shop. Opposing them makes good sense. Elevating one over all of the others doesn't.

This is particularly true when the concern over that one issue is itself further misallocated, focusing on the superficialities of religion instead of the root of the actual problem, economics.

By willfully remaining dependent on oil, we are actively supporting the very economic dysfunction which underpins and funds terrorism, and is blocking a new regional resolution of the sort Europe and Asia achieved long ago.

Seeking a new resolution will be chaotic, but it has an end game and is surely not a worse option than the present carnage and whacko terrorist interregnum. Supporting ad hoc tyrannies such as Saudi Arabia and Qatar only prolongs terrorism funding and motivation, and delays resolution.

This is about as obvious as geopolitics gets; I mean, if that much can't be learned from the horror and debacle of Afghanistan and Iraq then god help us all.

Mercifully, we have better institutions and more wealthy economies in the mix which can come together to try to minimise the carnage of any new resolution. Drip-fed carnage over decades with no end in sight is neither a more preferable nor more merciful kind of carnage, especially as it also causing irreparable environmental harm of various kinds.

Start turning off the oil purchase tap, and stop interfering hysterically and unproductively.

Islam is not he only issue, it's just the one under discussion here. Your obsession with oil, as though it can be turned off quickly and that will solve the problems, is hard to understand, in my eyes.

Because of my job, I know many people at pretty senior levels in car companies. Right now, there is no technology anywhere near oil on the cost curve, and they do not see one emerging for at least ten years. It will come when it will come, and $30/bbl oil probably just pushed the day back a decade or so. When the oil economy starts to die, the eruptions in the ME will probably shake the world even more. What is it about the evisceration of an economic system that you think will be benign ? Germany in the 1920s will probably ber a good template - a large mass of resentful people who want someone to blame for the fact that they have lost a standard of life that they were used to. Plus a medieval, apocalyptic ideology. The decline of the oil economy - when it comes, as it surely will one day - will be anything but a hiccup on the way to an Asian-style ME. Daryl Kerrigan had a phrase for that.