Israeli–Palestinian conflict

[Magpietothemax]

Oh Dear. You really do believe that, don't you.

Yes. It happened once before, and it can happen again.
Contrary to what you think, the conditions for it are becoming more and more favourable.

[David]

[stui magpie]

FWIW, the UN definition of Genocide is

"To constitute genocide, there must be a proven intent on the part of perpetrators to physically destroy a national, ethnical, racial or religious group. Cultural destruction does not suffice, nor does an intention to simply disperse a group"

Based on that, what's happening in Gaza (although a long way from acceptable) isn't Genocide and there's no reference to the perps and victims being of similar heritage.

[Magpietothemax]

Based on that, what's happening in Gaza (although a long way from acceptable) isn't Genocide and there's no reference to the perps and victims being of similar heritage.

...and how did you reach this conclusion? Are we to just agree with you, because that is your opinion?

Even the pro-imperialist ICC doesn't agree with you. In their judgement, they declared that there were grounds to believe that Israel was carrying out genocide in Gaza.

[Magpietothemax]

[pietillidie]

[Magpietothemax]

1) For a start, I'm guessing most people with a solid knowledge of the subject would avoid the term 'genocide', whatever the most vulgar creeps in the Israeli government have said.
...
2) Calling people in that state 'genocidal', when they are steps removed from a frontline they're watching on telly and just pissed off and scared in their basements, doesn't cut it for me. But sure, there will be a minor percentage of scumbags up with ethnic cleansing.
...

3)Bizarrely, you know the history of everyone else's horrors, but not those of your pet ideology.

There is alot to say in response to this, but I will address the three most significant points first
1) This claim is just plain wrong. Have you not heard of the UN experts on genocide. Craig Mokhiber resigned from his position as UN Head of Human Rights on October 28 because Israel was "committing text book genocide". Francesca Albanese and multiple UN experts raised the alarm about genocide in Gaza way back in November, and condemned world leaders for being complicit in it.
Experts from South Africa mounted a legal case that Israel was committing genocide which even the pro-US ICC felt compelled to recognise.

2) You accuse me of misrepresentation and being "learning resistant", yet I have posted on numerous occasisns that it is the Israeli government that is carrying out genocide, not the "Israeli people". I have always made clear here that Israel is torn by internal conflicts, and there is significant opposition within Israel itself to the genocidal policies of the Netahanyu government. It is the Israeli government - and all the complicit Western political leaders - who ultimately will stand trial for genocide in Gaza, not the populations of those countries.

3) The crimes carried out in the name of Marxism by the Stalinist bureaucracy in the former Soviet Union are of a similar historical magnitude to those carried out by Hitler. But Stalinism was not socialism. Trotsky explained: Stalinism is the grave digger of the Russian Revolution. The great historical lie of this epoch is that what existed in the Soviet Union was socialism. Trotsky formed the Left Opposition in 1923 to oppose the Stalinist degeneration of the Bolshevik government. In 1938 he formed the Fourth International, to take the place of the Third International which by then had become a counter revolutionary agency of imperialism. It is the Fourth International which today represents the genuine party of socialism, and which is committed to clarifying the real history of the Marxist movement.

I am not expecting you to agree with paragraph 3), tbh i am expecting some abuse from you in relation to it. But all I can do here is point to historical truth regarding the real history of Marxism and the fight for genuuine socialism. Soon, this will become a burning question in the minds of million people as the horrors of the current world continue to rain down upon them.

[stui magpie]

Based on that, what's happening in Gaza (although a long way from acceptable) isn't Genocide and there's no reference to the perps and victims being of similar heritage.

...and how did you reach this conclusion? Are we to just agree with you, because that is your opinion?

Even the pro-imperialist ICC doesn't agree with you. In their judgement, they declared that there were grounds to believe that Israel was carrying out genocide in Gaza.

It's my opinion and I don't "expect" that anyone has to agree with it, people have their own minds and can make their own decisions.

The OTP findings was that the case was worthy of investigation, they made no ruling either way and certainly didn't say there were grounds to believe that Israel was carrying out Genocide. It means that they can't or weren't willing to say they weren't doing it, so hence referred it to a proper investigation.

To simplify the process in laymens terms, someone makes a complaint to the Police. They review the complaint and deem that they need to investigate so assign officers to do that. That's where we are at present.

[pietillidie]

Del.

[David]

[pietillidie]

^You know I think the end of narcissism is carnage. But you still have to prove it and argue it unimpeachably. That said, I have made it very clear I want them stopped and/or monitored and dragged before the ICC. But as I said pages above, the time for serious intervention (i.e., a serious peace process) has come and gone, which is where the real failure lies, especially after what Hamas just did.

Also, part of my strategy is focusing on Nutteryahoo and the settler cult for good reason: it's politically smarter, clearer, simpler and less entangled. Target the obvious fruitcakes, who in any case always drive much of the violence.

[David]

[David]

On another note, the brilliant Holocaust movie The Zone of Interest just took home the Oscar for Best International Feature, and its director, Jonathan Glazer, gave a short acceptance speech linking the film's themes of dehumanisation with the war on Gaza:

https://www.tiktok.com/@varietymagazine ... 6750151979
https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/movie ... 235839564/

[pietillidie]

^I've aleady argued indirectly I don't like that approach. It only confounds things and lessens credibility, when the over-kill and violence in Israel's response is clear already, even though many empathise with their reaction to what happened, forgetting about the years of Palestinian oppression.

And don't forget, we live in a world now where people say very strong things because they think they might influence policy somewhat. That might be what you're doing with the term genocide; i.e., if it's horrifying enough we might just coax the US into leaning on them. Words and views are very malleable like that, and should not be read over-literally: "he thinks she thinks I think that you think....", and before you know it no one is really saying what they mean, but rather trying to coax some modest outcome.

Once everyone starts with the undisciplined hyperbole, nothing anyone says is taken seriously. The far-right purposely uses this approach as standard to muddy the waters and confound meaning, so there's a shabbiness and internet unseriousness about it.

[Magpietothemax]