Israeli–Palestinian conflict

[think positive]

i still disagree. i think most of them just want to live in peace, where they pay taxes and work, just like we get to. well aside from the damn protestors messing things up!

[Durka]

Just because you want to think that, doesn’t make it true.
How about you consider the actual facts.
Hamas is a political party.
Its key platform is - drum roll - wait for it - the extermination of Israel.
Not to live in peace and to just live their lives.
To exterminate Israel.
Last time there was an election in Israel, guess who the majority voted for?
Hamas.
Don’t spread that live in peace falsity.
Either you know nothing about the history of Judea/Palestine or you are an anti Semite.

[David]

Many Israeli civilians are also cheering the war from the other side. I trust you don’t think that makes the Israeli population acceptable military targets.

I do think that. If they celebrate it, then they support it and are equally complicit.

Responding to this, but also to Durka above:

I'd go further – the bar here is active resistance, not support; if you could do something to help stop it, no matter how small, and you choose not to, then you're absolutely complicit. And yes, by that logic, that probably makes every one of us complicit in really bad stuff (e.g. sweatshops, factory farming, war, organised crime) somehow or other.

But complicit isn't the same thing as culpable, and passive complicity isn't a crime that carries (or ought to carry) a death sentence.

As much as it's been roundly ignored through many conflicts in human history, the principle of treating non-combatants differently from combatants, in the sense that it is wrong to kill civilians – something that's been enshrined in international law since World War II – is an absolutely essential defence against the barbarism that we know humans are perfectly capable of inflicting on one another. Even if it can't be done perfectly, it's a goal that needs to be taken seriously; and countries that can't work towards that or have no interest in doing so have no business conducting war.

The real world Durka refers to is whatever we make it, and we can choose to make it hell in certain locations for certain periods of time by considering such principles optional – or, we can rigorously enforce those rules, and levy diplomatic and economic consequences for countries that disregard them.

[David]

Just because you want to think that, doesn’t make it true.
How about you consider the actual facts.
Hamas is a political party.
Its key platform is - drum roll - wait for it - the extermination of Israel.
Not to live in peace and to just live their lives.
To exterminate Israel.
Last time there was an election in Israel, guess who the majority voted for?
Hamas.
Don’t spread that live in peace falsity.
Either you know nothing about the history of Judea/Palestine or you are an anti Semite.

You refer to facts, but go on to spread several falsehoods in this post.

First is that Hamas's platform has long since been modified to remove that clause (which was originally in their mission statement when they were founded in the 1980s). Now, that may just be some kind of PR fig leaf aimed at concealing their true motives – I personally wouldn't trust an organisation like Hamas so far as I can throw them – but whatever the case it's not accurate to say that this is their key (or indeed any) platform as a political movement as it currently stands.

Second is that the majority voted for Hamas in the last election. It was 44%. It was also an election held almost 19 years ago (in January 2006). As I'm pretty sure I've pointed out on here in the past, nobody in Gaza currently under the age of 36 has ever had the chance to vote for anyone, which is well over half the population. By my calculation, if averaged out, the proportion of people living in Gaza before the war who voted in that election and cast their ballot for Hamas would be below 10%. (You can do your own maths here: https://www.statista.com/statistics/142 ... opulation/)

All this in service of justifying the killing of civilians, yet you accuse others of being anti-Semites for seeking to humanise ordinary Gazans. Hot tip: the thing that makes anti-Semitism bad is not just the fact that its target happens to be Jewish people, and visiting the exact same kind of prejudice and hatred on Palestinians doesn't give you any moral superiority.

Many in the Gaza Strip want to live in peace and get on with their lives. They didn't choose to live in a territory that's routinely reduced to rubble and devoid of basic infrastructure that most of us in the West take for granted, and neither do they wish to spend the rest of their lives in a war zone. Much as it'd be understandable for them to hate their oppressors, ordinary people's lives don't tend to revolve around politics, nationalism and tribal enmities. That they tend to get victimised by it regardless is one of the things that makes war so evil.

[What'sinaname]

As much as it's been roundly ignored through many conflicts in human history, the principle of treating non-combatants differently from combatants, in the sense that it is wrong to kill civilians – something that's been enshrined in international law since World War II –

The concept of war has changed and the line between combatants and non-combatants is significantly blurred. The "other side" don't wear an olive green uniform and a helmet anymore. Civilians who engaged in combat are no longer protected. And engaged in combat doesn't mean picks up a rifle and shoots at the enemy.

[David]

If you're seriously suggesting that international law ought to be rethought to make conducting war simpler and have fewer guard rails around it, I'd submit that maybe that's not quite what our priority should be right now. How on earth would such a change in thinking – i.e. broadening the range of legitimate targets – result in anything other than more death and suffering?

This isn't even a particularly old or hypothetical problem. There are plenty of cases of asymmetrical warfare in recent decades, at least as far back as Vietnam, in which armies decided to be less discriminate about their targets. (Look up the My Lai Massacre on Wikipedia and, if the October 7 parallels aren't immediately obvious, ask yourself how different "our" side even is from the terrorist organisations we condemn when events like that occur.) Even if the ends somehow justified the means, it didn't really help the US in that war in any case.

[stui magpie]

Hamas and Hezbollah are terrorist organisations and deliberately target civilian populations because that's what terrorist organisations do.

Israel targets the terrorists, but stopped caring a long time ago if civilians were in the way.

Neither of these are good things, it's the way it is.

The principle of treating non combatants differently to combatants may have come in post WWII because it sure wasn't in place during it, but no one really pays attention to it except when you get 2 actual countries at war, then they sort of pay lip service to it. When you have terrorist organisations at war with a country, it gets even messier.

FWIW, neither Hamas or Hezbollah care if civilians die on their side, they're just cannon fodder martyrs and good publicity. The poor bastards being blown up likely have a different opinion

[Skids]

Never fear, Albo's here... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTDWjoblA7w

[What'sinaname]

FWIW, neither Hamas or Hezbollah care if civilians die on their side, they're just cannon fodder martyrs and good publicity. The poor bastards being blown up likely have a different opinion

And civilians are undoubtedly protecting terrorists - allowing them to use civilian buildings as headquarters and / or access points for underground tunnels.

That's why the claims that Israel is committing genocide completely outrageous.

[stui magpie]

"Allowing" is a bit of a stretch, it's not like most of them would have a palatable choice.

[David]

FWIW, neither Hamas or Hezbollah care if civilians die on their side, they're just cannon fodder martyrs and good publicity. The poor bastards being blown up likely have a different opinion

And civilians are undoubtedly protecting terrorists - allowing them to use civilian buildings as headquarters and / or access points for underground tunnels.

That's why the claims that Israel is committing genocide completely outrageous.

Even if what you were claiming were true (or could be established in any conceivable way), there's no connection between your two sentences. Does it stop being genocide if the men, women and children being killed en masse can be blamed for something?

[think positive]

Just because you want to think that, doesn’t make it true.
How about you consider the actual facts.
Hamas is a political party.
Its key platform is - drum roll - wait for it - the extermination of Israel.
Not to live in peace and to just live their lives.
To exterminate Israel.
Last time there was an election in Israel, guess who the majority voted for?
Hamas.
Don’t spread that live in peace falsity.
Either you know nothing about the history of Judea/Palestine or you are an anti Semite.

ugh, i hate labels and name calling

my point was, most citizens dont think about politics day and night, i dont, once i posted my vote im done, unless i get stuck in the mess that is the stupid tunnel project, then i damn everyone in Parliament.
im not anti anything, except pedophiles, umpires and people who treat animals badly.

you sound like you think the entire population is out to get em! its not. they JUST WANT TO LIVE.

[David]

A fascinating little example of how Israelis and Palestinians live under different rules in the West Bank:

[stui magpie]

^

That's quite fvcked up.

[Durka]

Just because you want to think that, doesn’t make it true.
How about you consider the actual facts.
Hamas is a political party.
Its key platform is - drum roll - wait for it - the extermination of Israel.
Not to live in peace and to just live their lives.
To exterminate Israel.
Last time there was an election in Israel, guess who the majority voted for?
Hamas.
Don’t spread that live in peace falsity.
Either you know nothing about the history of Judea/Palestine or you are an anti Semite.

You refer to facts, but go on to spread several falsehoods in this post.

First is that Hamas's platform has long since been modified to remove that clause (which was originally in their mission statement when they were founded in the 1980s). Now, that may just be some kind of PR fig leaf aimed at concealing their true motives – I personally wouldn't trust an organisation like Hamas so far as I can throw them – but whatever the case it's not accurate to say that this is their key (or indeed any) platform as a political movement as it currently stands.

Second is that the majority voted for Hamas in the last election. It was 44%. It was also an election held almost 19 years ago (in January 2006). As I'm pretty sure I've pointed out on here in the past, nobody in Gaza currently under the age of 36 has ever had the chance to vote for anyone, which is well over half the population. By my calculation, if averaged out, the proportion of people living in Gaza before the war who voted in that election and cast their ballot for Hamas would be below 10%. (You can do your own maths here: https://www.statista.com/statistics/142 ... opulation/)

All this in service of justifying the killing of civilians, yet you accuse others of being anti-Semites for seeking to humanise ordinary Gazans. Hot tip: the thing that makes anti-Semitism bad is not just the fact that its target happens to be Jewish people, and visiting the exact same kind of prejudice and hatred on Palestinians doesn't give you any moral superiority.

Many in the Gaza Strip want to live in peace and get on with their lives. They didn't choose to live in a territory that's routinely reduced to rubble and devoid of basic infrastructure that most of us in the West take for granted, and neither do they wish to spend the rest of their lives in a war zone. Much as it'd be understandable for them to hate their oppressors, ordinary people's lives don't tend to revolve around politics, nationalism and tribal enmities. That they tend to get victimised by it regardless is one of the things that makes war so evil.

Facts? You are rather Trumpish with the facts.

44% in favour of Hamas is significantly better than the ALP's primary vote of 32.58% here in the 2022 federal election. And yet, the ALP governs Australia and represents its citizens.

As to the Hamas policy of exterminating Israel, I do not believe that it has changed. This is from 2017:

https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/hama ... ument-full

It's quite clear what it means - it's their intention to take over what they term Palestine, from the River to the Sea. That means, Israel. It's illuminating that they don't want to take over the other side of the River, which is Jordan, even though Jordan used to be part of what they call Palestine too. Why? probably because its not Israel.

If Hamas want to go back in time, why don't they call the area Judea? That's what most of that region was called before the Roman, Hadrian, changed its name to Palestine, which most historians believe was named after a Greek descended tribe, the Philistines (remember Goliath from David and Goliath?).

Regardless of how you try to spin this David, there are elements in the middle east, being Iran and their proxies Hamas and Hezbollah, whose aim is to exterminate Israel. They do not want a two state solution. They want to exterminate Israel. The only problem is, after taking shit for thousands of years, the Israelis will not stand for that any more. They are fighting for their lives. Kudos and good luck to them - they deserve it.