alternate thread 2 RIP 4 those who like 2 slag off dead guys

[think positive]

Feel free to unload here

Dead girls too, it wouldn't fit in the title

Cheers

[Wokko]

I didn't see anyone slagging off in the other thread. I commented on the current situation in South Africa being totally shit because some want to believe that it's some kind of harmonious paradise and David brought up some commentary, also in a respectful way, about the beatification of a man who was a soldier, revolutionary, terrorist, freedom fighter as well as in the end a conciliator. A man who did eventually revoke violence but who was instrumental in what was in effect a revolutionary war. Razers comments are perfectly legitimate and only controversial if you want to close your eyes to history and look at Mandela through the eyes of a cult of personality.

It belittles Mandela's legacy to see him as a Saint like I see in the media, do we look at the lives of other great soldiers, generals and leaders in this way? No we don't. Even Ghandi comes in for criticism of his support for the caste system and his attitude towards blacks in South Africa.

Someone passing away who is an international figure and whose life was at times violent (Amnesty International refused to support Mandela in prison due to him not revoking violence) is perfectly legitimate and not disrespectful or worthy of the sly contempt shown in this thread.

Considering the vile, disgusting commentary I saw when Margaret Thatcher passed away I hardly think some truth seeking is terrible, I also don't see anyone slagging off Mandela personally.

All that said, to your credit you said the same thing in the Thatcher thread about people not slagging off someone who had just died. I didn't mind the critical look at her legacy, which is all that's happening here, but the disgusting crowing over her death should put what's happening here into perspective.

[pietillidie]

[Wokko]

Don't make this another ideological circle jerk, I'm comparing the disgusting crowing on the death of Margaret Thatcher to the mild questioning of the sainthood bestowed upon Mandela and the gnashing of teeth that any mild critique elicits.

And I think you mean 'False equivalence' which is a logical fallacy, I'm happy you read that term on reddit or tumblr and decided to spread it into every thread you want to vomit left wing propaganda into. There IS a logical equivalence in comparing reactions to the deaths of two world leaders by the press and various internet commentators. It's a blight on the man that his struggle and fight is washed over to focus on his subsequent desire for peace. The man was the figurehead of a successful but brutal military and social campaign. There were many hurt and killed who were not part of the military, security or ruling classes and Mandela realised in the end the wrongs that were committed in his fight. Airbrushing history to suit a narrative is far more evil that searching for inconvenient truths.

Mandela spent 27 years in jail because he killed civilians during a military struggle, you're again turning a soldier into a saint. You're rehashing ideological nonsense rather than facing reality. While in prison his own side tried to have him killed numerous times in order to create a martyr, it's why he was imprisoned on an island and not given the death penalty because the white government didn't want to create a martyr and did everything to protect him from assassination. Mandela's story is amazing and compelling but this saintly person that is being celebrated is NOT Mandela.

[3.14159]

So your posts are about Thatcher and have little to do with Mandela?

fwiw. Mandela supported non-violence for many years but when he saw 147 protesters killed and hundreds more injured by SA police who fired into the crowd, he said, Enough! Non-Violence isn't working!

He was jailed on trumped up charge but was not released because of his refusal to renounce violence.
When released he preached forgiveness and reconciliation.
Mandela said...I'm not a saint, I'm a sinner that keeps trying.
Is that not the what Christian saints preached and believed?
..forgiveness & reconciliation?

If you want to compare Mandela to Thatcher, a woman that ran rough shod over millions of English lives, who killed thousands of Argentinians to combat falling popularity at home, all with-out a breath of conscience or remorse ..... be my jest.

Thatcher...."I don't care what people say about me, as long as they obey me".

[pietillidie]

Don't make this another ideological circle jerk, I'm comparing the disgusting crowing on the death of Margaret Thatcher to the mild questioning of the sainthood bestowed upon Mandela and the gnashing of teeth that any mild critique elicits.

And I think you mean 'False equivalence' which is a logical fallacy, I'm happy you read that term on reddit or tumblr and decided to spread it into every thread you want to vomit left wing propaganda into. There IS a logical equivalence in comparing reactions to the deaths of two world leaders by the press and various internet commentators. It's a blight on the man that his struggle and fight is washed over to focus on his subsequent desire for peace. The man was the figurehead of a successful but brutal military and social campaign. There were many hurt and killed who were not part of the military, security or ruling classes and Mandela realised in the end the wrongs that were committed in his fight. Airbrushing history to suit a narrative is far more evil that searching for inconvenient truths.

Mandela spent 27 years in jail because he killed civilians during a military struggle, you're again turning a soldier into a saint. You're rehashing ideological nonsense rather than facing reality. While in prison his own side tried to have him killed numerous times in order to create a martyr, it's why he was imprisoned on an island and not given the death penalty because the white government didn't want to create a martyr and did everything to protect him from assassination. Mandela's story is amazing and compelling but this saintly person that is being celebrated is NOT Mandela.

Your understanding of human morality is embarrassingly puerile, and your regurgitation of pimply teenage utopian libertarian theology telling; as if anyone with an ounce of worldly insight thinks populist beatification has any bearing on the real matters of interest here. The salient point is that you would've torn the bastards' testicles out and stuffed them down their vile oppressive throats, leaving their remnants burning in your wake and a nation of tens of millions of people in ruins.

Your defense of status quo power is a paranoid projection on a world which no longer wants to pay homage to the imperial children's stories of your fancies; as if in a world closing in on ten billion people and as many uncollected debts of violence we can draw a line in the sand that magically casts you as the embodiment of a morality whose only right end is to maintain the present order.

The takeaway for nineteenth century Darwinians who haven't discovered the frontal lobe yet is that the most sinister effect of oppression is its theft of the only meaningful expression of human moral worth: The way we treat others over whom we have power.

It is in this sense that the figure of Nelson Mandela fulfills the far more onerous demands of morality in the postmodern period in which you apparently don't realise you live.

[Tannin]

Mandella was a great man, a great human being on every level and the world was better for his life and worse off with his passing.

Thatcher was a mean, selfish wrecker who set her country's progress back 20 years and caused endless mistery. She was a great friend, supporter, and protector of brutal, evil, dictators who tortured innocent citizens to stay in power. The world was much worse off for Thatcher's nasty, evil-doing life and is now better off without her.

Equating the two and asking for equal treatment is just stupid.

PS: I have not posted in the Mandella thread because I didn't have anything to say that wasn't Blind Freddie obvious to anyone with half a brain.

[think positive]

Mandela said...I'm not a saint, I'm a sinner that keeps trying.
Is that not the what Christian saints preached and believed?
..forgiveness & reconciliation?

that's brilliant, I haven't heard that one, thanks for sharing, and YES that IS what its all about.

[Dr Pie]

Wokko, Mandela was not in gaol for killing civilians because he did no such thing. As 3.14159 said he was gaoled on trumped-up charges but then remained in gaol because after the South African state massacred unarmed demonstrators at Sharpeville (and later in Soweto) he refused to renounce violence. It was precisely because he had supported violent resistance to apartheid in the 60s and 70s that he could credibly preach reconciliation in the 90s.

[David]

I don't think anyone's going to be slagging off Mandela, so I guess we'll have to make do with this for now:

http://youtu.be/FtxqohNtLIg

[Wokko]

Don't make this another ideological circle jerk, I'm comparing the disgusting crowing on the death of Margaret Thatcher to the mild questioning of the sainthood bestowed upon Mandela and the gnashing of teeth that any mild critique elicits.

And I think you mean 'False equivalence' which is a logical fallacy, I'm happy you read that term on reddit or tumblr and decided to spread it into every thread you want to vomit left wing propaganda into. There IS a logical equivalence in comparing reactions to the deaths of two world leaders by the press and various internet commentators. It's a blight on the man that his struggle and fight is washed over to focus on his subsequent desire for peace. The man was the figurehead of a successful but brutal military and social campaign. There were many hurt and killed who were not part of the military, security or ruling classes and Mandela realised in the end the wrongs that were committed in his fight. Airbrushing history to suit a narrative is far more evil that searching for inconvenient truths.

Mandela spent 27 years in jail because he killed civilians during a military struggle, you're again turning a soldier into a saint. You're rehashing ideological nonsense rather than facing reality. While in prison his own side tried to have him killed numerous times in order to create a martyr, it's why he was imprisoned on an island and not given the death penalty because the white government didn't want to create a martyr and did everything to protect him from assassination. Mandela's story is amazing and compelling but this saintly person that is being celebrated is NOT Mandela.

Your understanding of human morality is embarrassingly puerile, and your regurgitation of pimply teenage utopian libertarian theology telling; as if anyone with an ounce of worldly insight thinks populist beatification has any bearing on the real matters of interest here. The salient point is that you would've torn the bastards' testicles out and stuffed them down their vile oppressive throats, leaving their remnants burning in your wake and a nation of tens of millions of people in ruins.

Your defense of status quo power is a paranoid projection on a world which no longer wants to pay homage to the imperial children's stories of your fancies; as if in a world closing in on ten billion people and as many uncollected debts of violence we can draw a line in the sand that magically casts you as the embodiment of a morality whose only right end is to maintain the present order.

The takeaway for nineteenth century Darwinians who haven't discovered the frontal lobe yet is that the most sinister effect of oppression is its theft of the only meaningful expression of human moral worth: The way we treat others over whom we have power.

It is in this sense that the figure of Nelson Mandela fulfills the far more onerous demands of morality in the postmodern period in which you apparently don't realise you live.

Your lack of reading comprehension or malicious misinterpretation and inability to carry on a civilized discussion without resorting to insults leads me to consider you unworthy of further discourse.

[Wokko]

So your posts are about Thatcher and have little to do with Mandela?

fwiw. Mandela supported non-violence for many years but when he saw 147 protesters killed and hundreds more injured by SA police who fired into the crowd, he said, Enough! Non-Violence isn't working!

He was jailed on trumped up charge but was not released because of his refusal to renounce violence.
When released he preached forgiveness and reconciliation.
Mandela said...I'm not a saint, I'm a sinner that keeps trying.
Is that not the what Christian saints preached and believed?
..forgiveness & reconciliation?

If you want to compare Mandela to Thatcher, a woman that ran rough shod over millions of English lives, who killed thousands of Argentinians to combat falling popularity at home, all with-out a breath of conscience or remorse ..... be my jest.

Thatcher...."I don't care what people say about me, as long as they obey me".

Not comparing the two individuals, merely comparing the treatment given to people after their death and the lack of respect that seems fine for political opponents juxtaposed with silencing anyone who says anything that isn't gushing praise for someone else. I have great respect for Mandela and his achievements, but in the same way I support the actions of Hezbollah for defending their people or any insurgency against brutal state oppression it is a respect tinged with sadness that violent actions were necessary, and a respect for the man that goes beyond this desire to see him as a saint. Why must a nuanced view be derided? None of you know him personally, I'm not disrespecting or belittling him at all. It seems that the first stop of leftists is to insult, belittle and shout down anyone who doesn't toe the line of their beliefs or dare to question or not follow the narrative.

Your post made me think, research a bit more, see where I was wrong and where I was right. It's informative discussion between unlikeminded individuals, so thank you.

[Neil Appleby]

[Neil Appleby]

Oh yes, more Hezbollah fundamentalism and racial hatred please. Just what the middle east needs.

[HAL]

Try expressing yourself another way.